[00:00:00] In trying to be the nice guy, trying to be that support, they're just being conflict avoidant and they're getting ran over. We have to be honest, it's self-sacrificing out of fear. It's an [00:00:10] anxious attachment behavior. At some point, the resentment comes forward and that I deserve. I'm a nice guy. Nice guys deserve x, I should have X and I don't have it.[00:00:20] So you can feel anger in your body, but do you have to express anger in a way that is harmful to others, right and harmful to yourself? [00:00:30] Have you ever found yourself agreeing to keep the peace so often that it starts to weigh on you? Do you ever wish you could speak up without turning it into a fight or fallen apart? If you answer just to those [00:00:40] questions, then you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winneke. This is American Masculinity, and our 10th episode we've got Latrice Newan coming on. Latrice is a couple's therapist with almost a decade of experience helping couples navigate [00:00:50] any number of problems to include the nice guy problem. We cover the resentment that it causes, the emotional cost, both for you and your partner and how to keep leadership [00:01:00] from moving into control. So if you're looking to fix these problems in your relationship or to protect the relationship you have, without it, you're in the right place. I think you're gonna find it helpful. Let's get started.[00:01:10] Hey Latrice, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you [00:01:20] so much for having me. I'm excited to be here to talk with you. Yeah, it's exciting. Like we were talking about a little bit before, like not seeing each other for 10 years and both kind of moving into some maker spaces [00:01:30] around the information. It's really like, I'm excited to have you. 'cause so far almost all the other clinicians that I've had on aren't doing this. They're, they're just in their [00:01:40] clinical practice. So I think your perspective on bringing some of these with that idea of more people listening is gonna be really helpful to folks. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:01:50] think, uh, just sharing. I think we help more people. The more information we get out, more people we touch, we're sending the messages. And so in our [00:02:00] clinical work is great. And what happens with the, you know, the rest of the hours that we don't see our clients or the rest of the time [00:02:10] that, you know, the, the people that are interested but they don't, uh, they don't have the ability to reach us. Yeah. And not, you know, [00:02:20] therapy isn't for everybody. Right. There are a lot of couples that, that's not gonna be comfortable or they went and had one bad experience and don't wanna try it again. And so just getting some of this stuff out there for [00:02:30] folks I think is gonna be helpful. Yeah. And I also, what I use my platform for also is 'cause I get a lot of the female partners to reach out to [00:02:40] me. Mm-hmm. And so. I let them tell their male partner to go see my, my Instagram information and my videos so that they can feel a bit more [00:02:50] comfortable and become familiar with me before they come into the space. Yeah, I remember just doing a few podcast appearances that really put a lot of guys minds at ease before they [00:03:00] called. It was just getting to hear my voice and figure out kinda what I was about. I think that leads into the first question pretty well that I wanted to kind of explore with you. [00:03:10] So for those folks in their twenties and thirties, right, these are folks that are really starting out their relationships, trying to figure out what to keep from their families, what to change and how they wanna [00:03:20] engage. What are the men that show up in those moments? What are they tending to be working on differently than women and non-binary folks? Yeah, so I [00:03:30] think that in a general sense, uh, men are trying to hold onto and their identity as a man. [00:03:40] I think that they're trying to make sure that when they show up in the space that they can be who they are. They don't wanna change. Um, because there's this fear [00:03:50] that if, if they go through therapy, they're gonna change their identity, they're gonna change who they are as a person and how they see themselves as a man and they don't want [00:04:00] to, to experience that. Mm-hmm. And I can gather that because, uh, I, I noticed that a lot of in, and this is in heterosexual, [00:04:10] you know, cis relationships where the female partner, typically she is asking for them to change. She is asking for, um, something [00:04:20] different. Mm-hmm. And so I have to let folks know that. Uh, change is something, is an individual process that happens within [00:04:30] someone. You can't force anyone to change. You cannot beg someone to change. You can't do any of that. They have to see that they are not honoring who they, who [00:04:40] they want to be as a person or how they envision themselves as a person. And so they typically, that is when change occurs, and that's when it becomes long-lasting. [00:04:50] Uh, so, so I think the biggest part when I see with the male partners is that they just wanna be who they are. They don't want to be changed. Yeah. I, I see that in my practice too, right? A lot of the guys [00:05:00] that come to me come because they're wives or partners send them. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, Hey, I don't know what's going on with you, but you need to go work on this. And what's [00:05:10] interesting is if they're coming to see a counselor, it's a pretty severe problem, right? Things aren't, well, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. Yeah. And it's always a kind of hit and miss [00:05:20] because they might make this big change where they're more in alignment with who they are and who they wanna be. The partner doesn't make the turn with them. Yeah. Even though the partner's the one that sent them. Yeah. I've seen that happen a few [00:05:30] times. And then the big kind of thing that I've noticed talking to other couples, therapists that really resonated is it's a stage of life thing a lot of times where you might've [00:05:40] started really well together and the husband like, why can't we just be where we are? But life is changing. Life is progressing right now. There's kids now there's this, there's that. [00:05:50] And one partner is seeing that change occur and trying to get that person to come with them. And if they can't make the turn, that gets really hard. Yeah. I think it's a hard, it's hard because [00:06:00] for some reason we all, we have never been taught how to marry well. Like we have not been taught how to be married or to be partnered well, [00:06:10] and for some reason we think that we are supposed to stay the same or grow exactly at the same moments in life. And what a [00:06:20] lot of the turmoil is, is through these big life transitions and one partner is progressing faster than the other. And when one person moves [00:06:30] ahead faster than the other, then they, there's resentment or pain or, or something. Um, sometimes it's also like a looking down, like a [00:06:40] pitying. And so there's that, like a contempt in, if you will, about them changing and their partner not changing. And so that [00:06:50] becomes, uh, a source of, of pain as well, because they're like, you, we are supposed to be doing this together. And the reality is we change and [00:07:00] grow and evolve on our own clock, not just because our partner is changing. And sometimes we will evolve and grow together and [00:07:10] sometimes one person has to move ahead. They have to forge the way a little bit so the other person can navigate in what it, in the space of what it looks like.[00:07:20] And what I see a lot with that just in like the sobriety space, right? Like I do a lot of addictions work with guys. Mm-hmm. Is one person, the person who isn't changing sometimes is [00:07:30] just being the safe space. Mm-hmm. Right? Like as you're making this big push, I've got us. Mm-hmm. And so like, when you're ready and we can reintegrate, we'll do that, but I'm [00:07:40] here and you're safe. And when that happens that way, it's beautiful, but it's just really rare for people to be effectively able to effectively negotiate that. Yeah. I think [00:07:50] being the safe space is a scary it. I think mentally people will say, you know what, I, I support you. I've got you. [00:08:00] I could be there for you. But the work to be a safe space is just as challenging. Mm-hmm. And a lot of, we, [00:08:10] we are emotionally self-centered creatures. Mm-hmm. And so when someone is needing us, we wrap up their, needing us into our [00:08:20] identity, and then we, there's this fighting that happens where it's just like, well, if I get wrapped up so much into them, then I lose myself. And then so [00:08:30] then they lose that, the safety of being, the support or being mm-hmm. Um. That safe space. And so I think that is another challenge. [00:08:40] Uh, what happens when there's uh, uh, like this growth or Yeah. Where there, there's this change in the relational patterns. Yeah. I think that that really [00:08:50] speaks to the old kind of paradigm around how a woman was supposed to manage her husband's emotions. Mm-hmm. Right? Like all the way into, now depending on where you [00:09:00] are, that's still the expectation and so that gets really rough. But for guys, I think it's changed a little bit because now it's that nice guy dynamic that we were talking about before we started [00:09:10] recording. Where in trying to be the nice guy, trying to be that support, they're just being conflict avoidant and they're getting ran over because [00:09:20] their needs aren't being met and they're not speaking to what it's costing them to be the support. Yeah. Until the resentments explode. Yeah, I, I, that [00:09:30] is 100% why I believe that the nice guy paradigm, the nice guy character, is a detriment [00:09:40] to men. And I think it's a detriment because it's like, it's a total, like it's the opposite. Mm-hmm. And it is [00:09:50] not, it's a, well, I'm not gonna be a butthole or I'm not gonna be an asshole, so I'm gonna do this, I'm going to, um, [00:10:00] be the opposite of that. But this just means you don't have boundaries. This means that you are not assertive, you are not placing boundaries. And one thing that I've learned [00:10:10] in a general space is that no matter the gender is that you're gonna get taken advantage of if you. Are in a space where you don't have boundaries, where you're [00:10:20] not speaking up for yourself. And it just, it's just a sign that men or anyone who believes in this nice guy, nice girl role, that they [00:10:30] haven't been taught, um, how to assertively navigate boundaries. Um, and they're wrapped up in their identity [00:10:40] around being good or being nice. And so, uh, that becomes like an ego thing too, because now it's part of the, I'm such a nice person.[00:10:50] I'm such a nice person. I'm such a nice guy. I deserve these things. I deserve And now you resent Yeah. That deserve is where it takes the [00:11:00] best turn. Mm-hmm. Right. If we're, if we're living to our values and we're being good men, it's not because of how we're treated, it's not because there's some kind of external validation.[00:11:10] It's important to be valued for what you bring to the table. But that nice guy thing every time, and I'm really guilty of this, like I spent a lot of my life trying [00:11:20] to live like that, is that at some point the resentment comes forward and that I deserve, I'm a nice guy, nice guys deserve x, I should have X [00:11:30] and I don't have it. And you never get it that way ever. I tell my clients, even the my female partners, [00:11:40] this niceness, niceness gets you nowhere but in heartache. So stop being nice. Hmm. And that's a weird thing. They, they look at me like [00:11:50] I'm crazy. But being nice in this world is just means that you are putting your, putting everyone else's emotions needs [00:12:00] ahead of yours. And you can be a kind person. And a kind person is a person that can acknowledge that I have the capacity or I don't [00:12:10] have the capacity to do something for another person. Or I need to look at how this is affecting me, right? Like, how is this me caring for [00:12:20] you as a partner? Am I going over the limits and say I can do something when I don't have the bandwidth to do it right? And it's unfortunate [00:12:30] because in a male. For men and I have a son, and so we've been trying to navigate that too. Uh mm-hmm. [00:12:40] For, for men, we teach boys to be nice to girls. We teach them to, [00:12:50] to um, to be nice to them, to not hurt them and harm them would great. Yet the reality is, is that we don't teach that, [00:13:00] Hey, if a girl says something unkind to you, you can say, Hey, that I don't like that. Yeah. How do you navigate that? I remember, I remember that [00:13:10] explicitly when I was a kid, my dad, if the one thing I would catch a beating for is if I was mean to a girl. He was [00:13:20] not a guy who like put hands on his kids. Right. But it was a very firm thing of like, this is how a man behaves with a woman. And it was my mom that had to kind of pull [00:13:30] me aside around, Hey, if she's being mean to you, like you've gotta, you've gotta do something. You can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. You, [00:13:40] and I don't think a lot of guys got that. No. The, there's a constant teaching of just be the bigger man. Right. Like, if a woman puts her [00:13:50] hands on you, you do not hit. Right. Like, and we're talking extreme, but Yeah. But what I do see, so going back to the nice guy and not the [00:14:00] extreme lens, is that, uh, men will kind of put whatever needs they have on the back burner [00:14:10] to pacify and make sure that their partner is happy. And to their detriment. Right? And to, I'm [00:14:20] gonna pick up extra hours, I'm going to do things that I don't wanna do. I'm going to all of those things, which granted women have been, uh, given [00:14:30] those same messages, but in a different way. We have to understand that we all have been given these messages, but it impacts us in a different way. Yeah. And I think we mistake [00:14:40] the need for hard work in building a life together. Mm-hmm. With the need for indefinite sacrifice. Yeah. Because sacrifice in [00:14:50] relationship's important when your partner needs something, if you've got the bandwidth and you can do it, and it's acknowledged sometimes. That's how that works. Just like it's gonna work for you on the other end when that balance is out and life moves forward. [00:15:00] But this, this story that men have to sacrifice for love and women have to sacrifice for love. I think it goes back to your early [00:15:10] point about like how we've ne we were not taught how to marry well. Mm-hmm. Because I think both. Genders, and I've even seen it in a few end of my non-binary clients where it's that same thing of like, you [00:15:20] suffer for love instead of you sacrifice for love sometimes, but suffering is just pain without purpose. Yeah. With my [00:15:30] clients, I actually take out the sacrifice. You are not sacrifice. Mm-hmm. When I think sacrifice, when I think of it, I think of sacrificing like a religious thing and like [00:15:40] you're gi you're giving up something of importance to this higher, like higher pedestal type being. Right. And so we don't even [00:15:50] sacrifice. I make the choice. So I make it more because, uh, uh, uh, controlling what you can control and accountability and self-awareness is really [00:16:00] important in my values and just how I practice. And I think that if you say, I'm willing to give this up for our relationship. Mm-hmm. [00:16:10] Then you don't have to live by, well, you sacrifice for relationships. Right. You sacrifice for love. It is more of I care about you [00:16:20] and I've decided to give this thing up, and it's within my bandwidth. Right? It's within my mm-hmm. Reach. It's with it is reasonable. Mm-hmm. [00:16:30] Well, and just by telling your partner that's what you're doing. Mm-hmm. They appreciate it. Yes. Like most guys, the nice guy syndrome is not telling their [00:16:40] partner when they're pushing their bandwidth even before it breaks. Right. I'm coming up on a line and I haven't told them, so they're gonna keep asking for something and they have [00:16:50] no idea that I'm overburdened. And if they did, they would either ask something different or it would make them realize [00:17:00] that this wasn't an indefinite thing I could provide. Yeah. And I think, and that, that's the part I think with the nice guy, nice person. Mm-hmm. [00:17:10] Narrative is that is so self-sacrificing that you don't share the reality, but it's self scr. We, we have to [00:17:20] be honest, it's self-sacrificing out of fear. It's an anxious attachment behavior. Mm-hmm. I'm scared to tell you that I can't do this because I'm [00:17:30] nervous that I'm going to experience disconnection in our connection, and I'd rather lie and sacrifice myself than to [00:17:40] tell you that I cannot do this thing, or I don't have the bandwidth, or I can only give you this. Yeah. I imagine a lot of the guys listening, there's a few of 'em that are recognizing this [00:17:50] pattern of themselves just like me, where they, they recognize now like, oh, I'm doing the nice guy thing. I'm letting some things go that I really need to address before they get ugly, [00:18:00] before those resentments get big enough that I can't do it. Well, how should those guys bring it to their partners? I think it's sitting and [00:18:10] being honest. And I think that one thing I've learned about just working with my male partners in general is that there is some self-awareness of [00:18:20] reality. Like, I can do this and I can't do this. If I do this, it's a lot if I don't do this right, like there's this, there is this deeper ability to do [00:18:30] that. Mm-hmm. But I think what the the worry is, is I'm afraid that I'm going to disappoint her or them. I'm afraid that I'm gonna make them, they're gonna be [00:18:40] mad. And what I tell my male clients a lot who experience this, as I say, you don't have control over their [00:18:50] emotional reaction or their emotional response. You can only control how you navigate the world. And being afraid of their [00:19:00] emotions isn't going to. Make the relationship any better. If you want true connection, you have to be honest and stand firm [00:19:10] in honoring yourself so that you can honor the relationship. Yeah. One of the things, uh, I had, uh, my training sergeant that took me [00:19:20] through my sergeant's course come on to talk about leadership. And one of the things that came up through there was the idea of, for guys and [00:19:30] anyone really, we need our emotions because they help us do certain things, but fear and anger aren't about connection. They're about containment, right? They're, [00:19:40] they're the balancers. This is my boundary. I don't want do this, I don't want you doing that. But those can't connect you. They can let you know there's something that needs to be [00:19:50] addressed. So how do they set themselves up for success with that? Like they know this is upsetting them or they wouldn't need to talk about it. They're fearful that if I [00:20:00] do this, my partner's gonna react poorly. And I'm not gonna be safe and I might lose them. What are, are there ways that they can do maybe a [00:20:10] softer approach to ease that in so they've got a little bit of reassurance to make that easier on them with their partners? Is there something they should be asking for? Yeah, so in our household, we [00:20:20] practice stoicism, which is really interesting. Mm-hmm. Because people think that stoics are like emotionless, but actually mm-hmm. True stoicism is actually being attuned to your [00:20:30] emotions and not being emotionally reactive. And so the thing that we practice in my home and that I, I also bring to my practice, um, [00:20:40] I think's more around navigating the facts. Right? I'm gonna just use this really interesting example, a male [00:20:50] partner, uh. I guess let's just say he lost his job and he's really nervous to be able to share this with his, his female partner and mm-hmm. He's just been [00:21:00] trying to do other things to kind of look like he has a job to really sit there and truthfully say, one, I feel ashamed about this, right? Like, [00:21:10] I feel ashamed, I feel embarrassed. I feel all of these things and I'm scared that she's gonna leave me. I'm scared that she's gonna lose, like she's gonna lose her [00:21:20] respect for me. All of those things. And the reality is, is I cannot, I cannot go to her [00:21:30] and expect her to have like this calm reaction. I can't control any of that. So I have to go into the space and be truthful. I have to be honest, and I [00:21:40] also, I think with female partners is leaning in and saying, Hey, this has happened, but. I can do this or I can't do this. So [00:21:50] what, in this just example, Hey, I lost my job, yet here's what I'm doing to support that, right? Like, I recognize that this may be [00:22:00] scary for you. This is nerve wracking for me, right? So I think it's more sitting and having a clear perspective of what you're going to do, [00:22:10] how you're feeling, or, you know, whatever the message is. Maybe it's, Hey, you're asking a lot of me and I can't provide that for you, right? So it's like, [00:22:20] Hey, you know, I noticed that you have been feeling very anxious lately and very nervous or whatever. Um, I too have been in a really tough space, but I also, [00:22:30] I wanna be there for you. But the messages that I'm receiving, they're confusing. Help me understand exactly what you need from me. Right? [00:22:40] So it's. It's because what I'm doing isn't making it better. Right. So, and I'm getting, I'm getting tired. Exactly. So be truthful and acknowledge [00:22:50] where you are. Like, Hey, I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not adding up in the way that I had anticipated, but I wanna be there. Right? Like, you add some sort of assurance, [00:23:00] but you also, you're curious, how can I be better there? Be there for you, or, Hey, I actually need you, I need you to show up for me. I don't never, [00:23:10] I don't usually ask that, but right now I need you to show up for me. So the frame, I always like to kind of combat that nice guy syndrome is [00:23:20] kind over nice, like you were saying earlier. Mm-hmm. And I think the nice guy pivot is always at this point where the resentments build up and you can't be kind with it. Like if [00:23:30] you, if you just stick in that nice guy laying eventually. Those resentments are gonna push you into that truth teller kind of dynamic where you've lost your kindness, you've lost your curiosity, and you're just [00:23:40] pissed off. Yeah. You're gonna volcano, I call it volcano. Mm-hmm. You're just gonna now, all your resentments, all of, and the resentment now is not even towards, [00:23:50] it looks like it's towards your partner, but it's really you because you didn't honor yourself. Mm-hmm. So part of this is people [00:24:00] believe that thinking about yourself, thinking about your emotions, thinking about how you feel, or your capabilities or your abilities to do something or mm-hmm. [00:24:10] Or your, your no. People think that that's selfish in a negative way, but I, I let folks know that selfishness is okay.[00:24:20] There's a health, a healthy selfishness and a harmful selfishness. When your no, or selfishness or your boundaries [00:24:30] are negatively impacting someone's health, safety, feelings, mental, whatever, when you're putting someone else in harm that is harm, that's, [00:24:40] that's unsafe and harmful selfishness. But when you are saying, Hey, loved one, you know, I, you've asked this a lot of me, and I have [00:24:50] done some reflection, and I realize that this is taking a lot out of me and I can no longer do it. But here, here's where I'm willing to do it. Here's where my capacity [00:25:00] is able to, to supply what you need and also not drain me. I think a lot of guys can relate to the idea of always, you always wanna be someone. [00:25:10] If you're showing up with a problem, you show up with a solution. I think that's hard in relationships for guys because we weren't raised to navigate that. Like no one really taught [00:25:20] us early how to seek those things. And so one of the things I coach guys to do in that scenario is, one, cue your partner up that you're trying something new. [00:25:30] Yeah, right. Hey, I've never done this before. I'm really worried about it. I really wanna do well at this. I'm trying it because I love you. Please keep that in mind as we talk about [00:25:40] this. Yeah. And then two, I want to be the support for you. I can't support you this way. Where are you gonna get that [00:25:50] support and where else can I support you? Yeah. And so you don't have to show up with that solution to the problem because it's probably wrong. You two need to negotiate [00:26:00] that together. Right, right, right. But just by opening that up, it takes so much pressure off of a guy when he is like ready to talk. Yeah. And I think that's the, the scary part is because. [00:26:10] The idea that he has to have it all together is so much pressure. Also, he has to have it all [00:26:20] together emotionally, and that's, that is a lot of pressure. And from, from a woman's perspective and [00:26:30] helping couples, I think women have a hard time navigating men when they don't have the answers or when they don't have it all together. [00:26:40] And so my job is usually how to hold both of them. Say, Hey, this is the first time you two have been able to do this. I don't, they, [00:26:50] this perfection thing is not okay. Like, there's no way you know how to do this. Yeah. I like the, the concept of [00:27:00] grace in these moments, right. I'm not, I'm not a religious person, but I, I always love that concept because it's the only way to learn how to do anything. Yeah. If you can't take that, you're [00:27:10] gonna suck at it. You're never going to get good at it. Yeah. I use the word compassion. Mm-hmm. I, I stopped using the [00:27:20] word grace. 'cause I think one, it's over sensationalized, but compassion, we all, we all can like, sit with that word when we hear it. I [00:27:30] even, I don't even use empathy anymore. I, yeah. Empathy has been a little misused. I feel It's been misused and just through further [00:27:40] research, like it can be manipulated, but compassion is a choice that, uh, you don't have to go through. Put yourself in someone else's [00:27:50] shoes. Right. Like you could see. Mm-hmm. If someone says they're hurting and they say they're hurting, I have compassion for that. Right. Like, I can, wow. You're hurt. Like, how can I support [00:28:00] you? Right. And I think that people need to have more compassion for themselves. Mm-hmm. And compassion for their partners. And I think one thing, uh, and [00:28:10] I think a lot of times what makes this journey hard for men to be emotional emotionally open, is because the, [00:28:20] a lot of times women expect men to be o emotionally open, but they don't know how to hold that emotional openness. And I try not to use the word [00:28:30] vulnerability 'cause that's something different. Mm-hmm. And so they don't know how to hold it. They do with their girlfriends in a [00:28:40] way, but when their male partner, whom they're for so many years, or in social view or image, they, they don't know what to do with it. [00:28:50] And so it comes out at the same similarity, like a similar message of. You'll get over it, right? Mm-hmm. I will never forget my first couple [00:29:00] session in grad school, and I had a, a, a female partner. She was just like, I just want him to be open more. I just want him to be open. And I, I worked on that [00:29:10] and I had hit the male partner open up and she said, well, he'll be all okay. I don't even know. I don't even know why he's even worried about [00:29:20] that. She totally dropped the thing that she had asked for. Mm-hmm. Well, I'll never forget that session at all because it, [00:29:30] it, it changed my view. It's super common. Yeah. I, I think the, the way I feel about guys who are coming at it, like in an empathetic [00:29:40] communication skillset mm-hmm. For the first time mm-hmm. Is their partners expect it to go smoothly because they're good at it with their girlfriends. Mm-hmm. And. [00:29:50] They're, what they're missing is they weren't good at it when they were teenagers. And that's kind of where he's at with it. 'cause that's when we learn, like, if you're gonna [00:30:00] be that kind of empathetic person in the world, you learned it young and it's easy to forget that when you were learning it, you, you sucked at it like you weren't any good at it. Yeah. [00:30:10] And I think that's where that loop starts of like, oh, well that wasn't that bad. Of course he's mad about that. Why is he so upset? Yeah. Because he just acknowledged that he's upset. He's never done that before. Right. [00:30:20] Now you're, you're, you're expecting to be at a space where you are. I, one of my supervisors, she said something to me that really stuck out and she said, you know, [00:30:30] sometimes the anxious, uh, attached for person, which is typically is general. In general, this is generalization, is is a female partner, [00:30:40] a woman partner. She says they are good at vocalizing their emotion. They are good at, um. Talking [00:30:50] emotion, but they're not good at holding the emotion because that requires another level of vulnerability that they haven't gotten to yet. [00:31:00] So that's why when I think it sometimes with men who typically are, um, of avoidant or dismissive in [00:31:10] their, in their attachment style, uh, they haven't had the opportunity to like [00:31:20] vocalize it. I typically think in general, I'm going back to this, is that men, they sit in this cave and they do think about it and they do, but they're, [00:31:30] the world doesn't provide a space for to vocalize it. And that's the hard part. And so when they do share it, [00:31:40] there's this more talking that is expected to go with it. And that's the hard part. It's the talking isn't gonna make it better. It is [00:31:50] the holding that makes it better. And I think that in general, we do not hold well. No, and I was just [00:32:00] thinking about this too, because I think it's important to acknowledge that men's anger is what hurts people most of the time. Yeah. Right. So right [00:32:10] around 80% of all violent crime is committed by guys and women have been socialized forever to fear men's anger. Mm-hmm. [00:32:20] And I don't think that's ever gonna change. Right. Like I don't think it can. 'cause that's where a lot of the danger in the world comes from. Yeah. But what I often run into [00:32:30] is if I'm working with a bigger guy, for instance, they're not allowed to get angry. Mm-hmm. Because their anger is terrifying. Like if you're over six feet, over [00:32:40] 200 pounds as a man and you get angry, people re have a big reaction. So what I've seen happen a lot with those guys and their partners is them [00:32:50] getting permission to be angry. Like, you know, I would never hurt you, but I, I need, like, I need you to, to see [00:33:00] me be angry about this. Like, I need space for that. How do we do that where you feel safe and I feel safe? Yeah. I, that's such a helpful [00:33:10] perspective that many people, and my husband's like six two and he's above God, and we've talked about that before, is that people see [00:33:20] his anger as, as a weapon or as dangerous. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so there's a lot of times where that's not a, that's not a welcoming emotion.[00:33:30] And the, the, the thing is, is that women are. Their anger is allowed, right? Like their an because it's not seen as dangerous or harmful, [00:33:40] it's just dismissed. And I have worked with many, many men are in emotionally abusive relationships, and you can't call the police and say [00:33:50] she's talking bad about me, right? So you can't document that. And so, and it goes back to don't, you know, be nice to girls, don't hurt them, [00:34:00] things like that. But also, uh, women have like, there's this weaponizing of anger on both sides. And I think that the unfortunate thing is [00:34:10] that we have to see that anger is a message of pain. Anger is a message of not feeling safe.[00:34:20] I don't know if you remember him, but Eric, one of the guys we went through the program with, came on to talk about trauma, and I really liked how he framed anger as it's our bouncer. Mm. [00:34:30] Right. Our anger is like our advocate. It's, it's trying to get our boundaries held, seen, and respected. And so if you cannot have anger in your [00:34:40] relationship, it's really hard to have a good relationship because it's harder and harder to have those boundaries so you can have the freedom to go do the things that work. [00:34:50] Yeah. And I, I, I had never thought about that. I think that's a beautiful way, a helpful way, and I'm gonna use this, so thank you, Eric. I'm gonna use it when I'm talking to my male clients [00:35:00] about like, Hey, like this is your protector. Like, Hey, you can't get in here. Right? Like, this is not, this is not the space to to, to do that. [00:35:10] Right. It's protecting the boundaries. Mm-hmm. And so I, I'm definitely gonna use that, but it's also, I think that if we. The [00:35:20] part of this is, is that I think that we are trying to work on a space where we're also, uh, I try to work with my clients to not be so reactive. 'cause anger is very [00:35:30] reactive. Mm-hmm. How can you get your boundaries met without being very reactive. Mm-hmm. So you can feel anger in your body, right? [00:35:40] Mm-hmm. But do you have to express anger in a, a way that is harmful, um, to others Right. And harmful to yourself? Yeah. Yeah. I think [00:35:50] anybody who's ever experienced rage understands that it's physically painful. Like when, when I've experienced rage, you're so tense. It, it [00:36:00] physically hurts to be still when you're that angry. Yeah. Um, and I think that I wanna make some time for the other [00:36:10] end of this. Okay. But I, I think that's this end of the nice guy thing is the anger is going to do its job eventually. Yeah. And if you don't give it an opportunity to, it's [00:36:20] gonna pick one and it's not gonna be effective and you're not gonna like the outcome and you're probably at worse or at best not get what you [00:36:30] want. And at worse, you're gonna scare somebody who you feel incredibly protective of. Yeah. I choose your heart. Right. Do you want it to be hard in the beginning where you [00:36:40] haven't, there's no damage? Or do you want it to be hard in the end where there's a lot of damage that that could be caused? I love that quote. Now I've got [00:36:50] one I'm stealing from you. Choose your hard. It's fantastic. It's perfect. I love that. 'cause it's true, right? Like, like most of adult life [00:37:00] is picking between which challenge to take on. Mm-hmm. It's never like always picking ice cream or cake. Never. Right. I [00:37:10] wish it was that easy. Right. You're very lucky when you get to choose ice cream or cake, but most of the time it's what's worth the challenge. Yeah. Where's my heart that I wanna pick? [00:37:20] That's beautiful. Yeah. I say if you have your, if you know your values, your personal values, your personal ethos Right. What guides you, your mission, your personal [00:37:30] mission mm-hmm. When you make decisions off of that, then it's, your heart is easier to choose. Right. You, you get, most likely you're gonna choose the one in the front. [00:37:40] Mm-hmm. You are gonna think about your future self. Mm-hmm. One, that's why values work. Like I'm the, I'm doing a whole episode on it and it'll probably be released before this is mm-hmm. [00:37:50] Around how to find your values so that you can navigate that better as a guy. 'cause if you don't know what you're willing to experience pain for mm-hmm. It's really hard not to just suffer. [00:38:00] Yeah. Yeah. So. Kind of to bring this around to the other side of things. Okay. I, I think when a lot of guys hear this without the other end of the [00:38:10] context, it becomes very easy to think of boundaries as control. Mm-hmm. There's a lot out in the manosphere talking about how men need to be leaders and they [00:38:20] need to be leaders in their household. And I think some dynamics that's, that's kind of true, right? Like everybody's got, I like it more like, this is your lane, this is my lane, and we trust each other [00:38:30] and help each other in our lanes when we need to. But a lot of guys want to be some kind of leader in their household. I'm sure you've seen this too, where that just starts to [00:38:40] become more about control mm-hmm. Than actual leadership. Yeah. What should the guys be watching for, to understand the distinction in their, in their relationship? Yeah. [00:38:50] You know, leadership is about making hard choices and in considering the people you must need. Because [00:39:00] I am, I believe in, in leadership, in a marriage, I believe in that. So I have some traditional marriage values. Yet I think that [00:39:10] a good leader from a business standpoint, from a social activist standpoint, from any, if you look at a leader, they're not controlling anyone. What they are doing [00:39:20] is, is that they're making decisions that, that they know will impact the rest of the group, but in a way [00:39:30] that will impact them in a way for growth. Uh, that considers them, considers their safety, considers their emotional, physical, all of that. How will [00:39:40] this negatively impact these people? How will this positively impact them? And in a marriage or in a, a partnership, [00:39:50] even though there's a leader, there has to be some sort of, um. Dialogue amongst the two. Mm-hmm. The, the, the partners, the people buy-in and the, you have to [00:40:00] have a buy-in, like you have to, I, my husband was listening to, he loves to listen to podcasts on road trips, and he, it was one about leadership, uh, about [00:40:10] Navy Seals and, uh, their leader, uh, in the group. Mm-hmm. I don't know what the title is of this, but, um, but he was saying that you have to, [00:40:20] one, understand the mission, and two, in order for them to, for the people who are you are leading, you have to be able to [00:40:30] display the message or give them the message of what are, what's the point of this? Where's this gonna take us? And so once you do that, then [00:40:40] it, there's the safety. And so when you're trying to control, you're like, Hey, we're just going over here. You're not considering, you are not considering, you're just, it's a ego trip in, in essence because with [00:40:50] leadership you also take accountability. Yeah. That, that was, there were kind of two things that were running through my mind there. And radical accountability. Like, you cannot be a leader if you're not [00:41:00] accountable. Yeah. If it's your call, you have responsibility. Mm-hmm. And what, what's interesting about this, I can't remember the exact stat, but I'll, I'll find it [00:41:10] and post it up over this point. But we know that despite this big push for guys to be supposed leaders in their household, women are making the majority of the domestic [00:41:20] decisions mm-hmm. Of a household consistently. And what that tells me is it's about someone's lane, right? If I'm gonna be [00:41:30] like the guy and I wanna be a leader, and I'm about like, this is where we're going to achieve the things we wanna achieve. And if my partner is a leader in, we're gonna make sure everybody's safe and [00:41:40] has what they need to do the mission. And these are not mutually exclusive. They need to be discussed and they need to be respected. So when the domestic partner. [00:41:50] And I've had, like, my, my, one of my favorite clients is a, a former special forces guy that is a stay at home dad now. Right. If you're the domestic partner, that's your lane. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] But you need to take into consideration other people's stuff. But at the end of the day, it's your call. Like if you're the one engaging in that system the most, it's your call. You just need to take the other person to consideration. Right. And then on the other end, I, I think [00:42:10] that's, that's where the leadership lands because it's not a control thing. It's a, I'm focused on this for us. Right, right. Yeah. There's a mission. The thing is, [00:42:20] is that one the family has to have and the, the relationship, the marriage, whatever your set set up is, there has to be a goal. What are [00:42:30] we trying to obtain as this partnership? Forms or it fors through life that, and then you make, [00:42:40] as a leader, you are taking responsibility and accountability for getting you all there, but you're considering the folks that are, that they're next to you [00:42:50] or beside you or around you, whatever, that are impacted by your decisions and you can't lead the unwilling. Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] And I think that's the other thing is I, I think a lot of guys end up in that controlling space because they're trying to lead somebody who isn't willing. Yeah. You know, you two aren't on the [00:43:10] same page about what the mission is. The goal is your lives are going in different directions and you're terrified of losing your partner instead of deciding [00:43:20] how do we either get moving in the same direction, in a supportive way. Or can we pick, can we agree on a, in a different mission than like what do we wanna do? Yeah. If [00:43:30] this isn't happening. Yeah. And it's scary because sometimes the answer is, this is an impasse. Sometimes want things in us impasse. Yep. Yeah. You know, the thing [00:43:40] is, is that folks who confuse control and leadership, I think that there is, it's um. [00:43:50] It's a, and I don't wanna use ego, but it's a fear-based thing. Mm-hmm. And that's all about maintaining safety. Yeah. I wanna feel safe in, in this relationship. I wanna [00:44:00] feel safe in how you view me. I wanna feel safe and confident. I want you to see me as confident. I want you to see me as I, I have control over this. The other [00:44:10] thing is, is that, uh, when it might be a man who might have, and, you know, if we think about how society, um, there's subgroups, [00:44:20] there's, you know mm-hmm. Different men are in, many men have different, uh, life experiences in whatever categories. Not every masculine trait is every man. [00:44:30] Yeah. And so to prove that, or to, uh, there's also this social message that they're trying to prove. Like, I'm, I'm the man here, so I'm supposed to do this, [00:44:40] but I. So it's really, they're trying to fight social messages in their relationship in, in doing so, so, mm-hmm. So I think that's the other part, but I, [00:44:50] I think that if you show leadership qualities and you have shown some sort of progress or success [00:45:00] at it, a general sense, most women are okay with that. There needs to be some assurance of, you are not gonna put me [00:45:10] in danger. You are gonna make decisions that actually consider the, the impact it has on the total picture. [00:45:20] Yeah. Our, and you're gonna respect the changes of our life. Mm-hmm. Right? So if you're in your twenties and you don't have kids and you wanna make a big financial risk professionally, that is a very [00:45:30] different implication than someone in their mid thirties with a kid. Yeah. And I, I think a lot of guys don't make that turn very well. Mm-hmm. And that's where they lose [00:45:40] some of that. And I also think from the domestic leadership end, guys don't respect enough the domestic partners decision making and leadership on that end. They just get [00:45:50] tired of being told what to do or told how to hound it instead of, oh, you got this. Yeah. Like guys always end up in that. Like not always, but a lot of guys end up in that. [00:46:00] Like, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. But at some point they get tired of being told what to do and push on something, right? Instead of just like, wait, wait, I've, I've [00:46:10] handed you the management of this and now I'm annoyed that I'm not managing this. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it is like the, with children, uh, there's [00:46:20] this like a busy book. So it's just like the, the parents are like, I'm gonna give you this thing so you could go ahead and stay busy just doing whatever. But then mm-hmm. The [00:46:30] child no longer has interest, so they keep coming back. And so I think that's the, it's kind of like this push, like, I'm gonna give you these tasks and you go ahead and do that. But the reality is, is that, [00:46:40] um, that probably wasn't a good example, but, but the reality is, is that, um, domestic, domestic tasks [00:46:50] is a lot. Yeah. And people don't understand it. And I think it, if you think about in the twenties, we have freedom to not care [00:47:00] about how our house looks because it's either with roommates or we're living by ourself. For sure. And then we get into a, a, a [00:47:10] committed relationship, a long-term committed relationship or marriage. And then you're sharing the home. And now the house has to look a certain way. And I think that [00:47:20] sometimes, uh, then they, we play a role, right? Mm-hmm. Once you get married or you're in a long-term committed relationship, then you start playing a role in, you know, [00:47:30] cisgender heterosexual marriages. Like, okay, well, you're the man, I'm the woman. We'll just do this thing. Mm-hmm. And then everybody resents [00:47:40] that they're, they're stuck in the box. That they're stuck in it. Mm-hmm. And then when someone makes a complaint, which is typically the person who has to do the most, [00:47:50] the person who has to do the, or who is contributing the least, like, well, no, you know, well. Yeah. Well, and I love the parallel of that, right? [00:48:00] So on the domestic end, it's not respecting, like we have never as a species until the fifties had entire responsibility for a household on one person. Yes, it's [00:48:10] dumb. It shouldn't be that way. We're not designed for it. And so you see a lot of guys where they just get tired of, you know, like, like the, the kind of crap term for it is handpick, right? [00:48:20] Mm-hmm. And then on the other end, you always hear the guys go, she doesn't respect me. She doesn't acknowledge what I bring. She doesn't acknowledge what I've sacrificed for my career [00:48:30] to have the things we have. And I think that is the classic, like you, you believed the box that society told you to be the man in the house. This is what it means [00:48:40] to be the woman in the house. This is what it means. Instead of checking in with each other and making decisions about who's holding what. Because you might end [00:48:50] up in the box as a couple, you might really decide like, this is what we wanna do and this works for us. But if it's negotiated, it's acknowledged. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:49:00] having the ability to come and check in, like, Hey, I'm having a hard time with this. And then it be the space being held or acknowledged, like, okay, [00:49:10] well how do we solve this together? Right. Instead of, well, you said this, or this is your role. And I, granted, I believe that in order for to manage a [00:49:20] home well, there needs to be roles and responsibilities. Mm-hmm. And things change and checking in, like you suggested, like you [00:49:30] stated, checking in and and acknowledging, okay, this might really be hard. Because I remember when having my son, there was a time where I was like, I don't know how I'm [00:49:40] managing cooking food, but I love cooking dinner every day, but now I don't know how I can manage that. Yeah. And going to my [00:49:50] husband saying, you know, we're gonna have to. We're gonna have to order food or you're gonna have to cook. I don't know, but IC but I don't have it today. I don't have it. [00:50:00] But if I would've pushed myself and kept, like pushing my, you've burn out capacity, then I would explode. And that's mm-hmm. You know, if we reverse it, right? [00:50:10] Mm-hmm. If, yeah. Like that burnout for guys at work mm-hmm. Where they go to their partner and they're like, they're afraid to tell 'em Yeah. That they need to stop working at this career, [00:50:20] this job that's paying as much as it is. Exactly. Because it's, it's hurting them. Yeah. And they're so afraid of just going to their partner of like, can we take not having a new car every three [00:50:30] years? Can we take accepting that we're gonna rent instead of buy for longer? Yeah. And yeah, that's, that. It's just having that capacity and faith [00:50:40] in your partner to have the conversation in the first place. I agree. I, I also think that I. Some of this stuff needs to be discussed, [00:50:50] uh, or just like a values-based thing early on in the relationship before it gets to the long-term commitment thing. Because I think that [00:51:00] checking and exploring, well, how do we handle conflict together? Right? How do you handle the tough stuff? The how do you handle [00:51:10] the, the layoffs or the mm-hmm. The, I can't do this anymore. Those type of, just, just having conversation about it because I, what I found is [00:51:20] that so many couples, they didn't expect their partner to behave this way. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it goes, I always like it. [00:51:30] Going back to kind of one of the things that Scott Galloway has been saying a lot of which is you need an area of excellence and you need it to be witnessed by your partner. Mm-hmm. And you don't find an area of [00:51:40] excellence without a value attached to it. Because to become excellent at something is a ton of work, a lot of mistakes. Mm-hmm. And if you don't have a value on the other side of that, you don't get there. [00:51:50] And so if you get with somebody, that initial attraction is what brings us in, right? That look across the room, that magic of the first six months, right? That new relationship energy. [00:52:00] But once that starts to go down, which it naturally will, if you can't have those values discussions, you're gonna end up with somebody that's not on alignment. Right, [00:52:10] and it, it goes back to, to that, so that you, you are less afraid to have these conversations when transitions happen, or you have [00:52:20] to have a boundary, which is mm-hmm. What can I do to honor and protect what's important to me? Not what can I tell this person to [00:52:30] not do, or can or cannot do, but I have to speak up and I have to say, I don't have the capacity, or I have to be able to listen [00:52:40] more because my relationship is important. So I have to be able to hear without attaching a values. Me or what this, what my [00:52:50] partner is saying, like not personalizing their inability or their burnout or their, um, their complaint or concern. Um, I think that's [00:53:00] hard in general for a lot of men is when their female partner has a complaint or concern. It's interesting. In the boy crisis, they talk about [00:53:10] how the thing that women can do most for male partners is acknowledge, acknowledge, acknowledge is the quote from the book. Mm-hmm. And what it means is, is men are so afraid [00:53:20] of being seen as less mm-hmm. That they can't disclose mistakes. Yeah. Whereas if your partner and I just think everybody should be pumping up their partner, like, I don't think this [00:53:30] needs to be gendered you, like you need to be acknowledging they're awesome. You need to be their cheerleader. You need to be the one in the stands rooting for 'em when they're doing the awesome thing they're doing, whatever that is. Mm-hmm. I think that's the, that's magic [00:53:40] partnership, right? Yeah. But if you don't do that, there is very little room. For them to feel safe coming to you when they can't do it [00:53:50] Right. 'cause they don't believe you're gonna see 'em. Right. And the thing is, is the most of the tension in relationships are the things that are left unsaid. Mm-hmm. [00:54:00] Every time. Every time. It's what ended my, it's what ended my marriage. Oh yeah. Is that like, you get afraid that nice guessing norm. Right. You get afraid that [00:54:10] this boundary isn't gonna be respected and I don't know how to deal with that. Yeah. So you stop holding the boundary or you start try to hold others, or you start trying to manage. And lo and [00:54:20] behold, that resentment builds over time and eventually it's gonna come out in a bad way. And the other thing about boundaries like this, right. That conversation is the start. Mm-hmm. It, you don't get to say [00:54:30] it and it ends. And I think that's where people are afraid. Yeah. Is this is the start of the conversation in these things. Yeah. And I, I love that with everybody. The best advice you can have in a [00:54:40] relationship is figure out a way to say it, because silence begets silence. Yeah. Like once one person is holding something back, the other person feels it and starts holding things back. [00:54:50] Mm-hmm. And there is just this, the mirror neurons is just such a beautiful thing because we do, we do sense it, we sense what's happening. We sense our [00:55:00] partners pulling away and, and not saying, and so then you stop saying, and they stop saying, you've just pull so far away from each other. And [00:55:10] then it just, now you have this wall of unsaid things and it's, as a therapist, as a relationship consultant to Navi to [00:55:20] dig through that wall is so hard. Mm-hmm. Brick by brick. Well, I wanna be respectful of your time 'cause we're already going a little over. Okay. Because I spent so much time catching [00:55:30] up with you before we started recording. Um, so, uh, very smooth transition here into learning about you a little bit and sharing some personal stories. Okay. [00:55:40] Yeah. So like, like I queued you up in the beginning, just to kind of give you some warning, uh, the questions we ask everybody. The first one is, [00:55:50] what's the truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12 that's remained true through your life? So, I thought about this question. The reality is I didn't know [00:56:00] anything about like, masculinity. I didn't know that I knew I, I don't have an answer that is like, I saw [00:56:10] this and this as a man or anything like that. Um, I was typically raised with lots of women. Mm-hmm. So any, [00:56:20] so there was an absence. Yeah. And so, and it wasn't called femininity or anything like that. It was. It just was. It just was. And the thing is, is that, I mean, [00:56:30] my mom was partners, so I had stepdads, but I just, I didn't see it as masculine or feminine or anything. So I don't, I didn't have an idea of, [00:56:40] of masculinity in that sense. But I think as a teenager, that is kind of where I shifted in knowing like what men are [00:56:50] supposed to do and what women are supposed to do. Well, what's some of those early led, like what's an early factor that you learned as a teenager that's. How true? Yeah. So the [00:57:00] helpful thing is, is that I always saw men as someone who is to protect meaning strong. Mm-hmm. And in this like [00:57:10] stereotypical, like a leader who leads the family makes good decisions for the family. Um, I had really good friends who had their fathers in their life as a teenager. Mm-hmm. And so [00:57:20] I'd spent a lot of time with them. Mm-hmm. And so their fathers were just really good leaders, made really good decisions, their families were okay. And so mm-hmm. I always [00:57:30] envisioned like that is, if I was to have a male partner, that would be what I would expect is for him to take care of the family, that physical safety mm-hmm. Protect the family. Yeah. That's [00:57:40] make really good decisions. Make sure the family is in a safe environment. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I always liked the way my [00:57:50] grandparents did because they were classic, like white fifties couple. Mm-hmm. Like my grandmother ran the house. My grandfather, like ran his, his work, he made it, he did really well, but [00:58:00] he handed my grandmother his paycheck. 'cause that was the household. Right. And one of the things I always loved about that and, and I had a hard time in our [00:58:10] program about it because it, it wasn't very feminist and I didn't have the frame of, they chose that mm-hmm. When we were in school. But that idea of the men, the [00:58:20] masculine end of that is keeping that physical safety, the base needs established and the feminine is the emotional safety. Yeah. [00:58:30] Yeah. Right. And when you have both of those, and I don't even think that needs to be gendered really. Right. But you need both in a household somewhere. Mm-hmm. You definitely eat both in the household. And I noticed it in my friends' [00:58:40] homes. My favorite part, like my most favorite memory is just, uh, my friend, her stepdad, he get up everybody. He'd make [00:58:50] everyone breakfast on Sunday morning. We'd go to church. After church. We'd go and play basketball or go play some sport. Like he led us. So like [00:59:00] in that, it was also a leadership thing too. I think that's very important to me that left a really big impact on me is that mm-hmm. He was big on teaching us [00:59:10] basketball skills and big on making sure we were in the Lord, right? Like in the word of God. Mm-hmm. And, um, making sure that we were safe [00:59:20] and making sure we were fed. So he did, he like cooked and all those things, but I think that he just made really good family decisions, even though again, [00:59:30] pe like it. This was my friend, but I stayed there. I spent a lot of time over her house to be able to see. Yeah. They were friendly. That, and so another friend is that both her [00:59:40] parents work, but again, her dad, you could tell that there's leadership there, but there was more partnership in her family where both parents worked really, really good [00:59:50] jobs. And the dad would, you know, he'd lay the law and we'd all follow it. Mm-hmm. And so the, the value of, I think my [01:00:00] identity of, of masculine was more around leadership and decision making. Mm-hmm. And in leadership is protecting and making sure everyone was okay and in a good [01:00:10] situation. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that that certainly resonates with me and a lot of the, the kind of family dynamics I saw that I liked. Yeah. [01:00:20] Well this one might, might be more interesting. Yeah. 'cause it covers a bigger part of your lifespan. But what's a time where pursuit [01:00:30] of your femininity hurt you? You know what it, I think it was more recent, um, understanding femininity in a [01:00:40] way where it, I discovered that femininity hurt, femininity is very reactive. Mm-hmm. And it can be dependent. [01:00:50] And so I talked about, uh, this radical self-awareness and self like accountability. This is newer, it's in the more, uh, I don't wanna [01:01:00] lose the, the next question, but, um, but it hurt me because I thought that it was okay to be emotional, like reactive. Mm-hmm. It was okay [01:01:10] to, 'cause women are just emotional beings. So I get to be upset. I get to express my anger. I get to, yeah. Tell you how bad you are [01:01:20] hurting me. I get to, um, make sure, you know, my needs. At the expense of my partner, at the expense [01:01:30] of the, the safety of the relationship. As long as I focus on making sure that I am happy. And I think that hurt, that hurt me a lot [01:01:40] because I realized that one, happiness is fleeting and no one is responsible for my happiness but me. And so this message that I get to be emotionally reactive, [01:01:50] to protect and to be happy, to get happiness, uh, that really, that did really did put a detriment to, to my reality. Yeah. That really resonates. [01:02:00] The, uh, and I certainly fell into this, uh, as the idea that being emotional and emotionally and aware mm-hmm. Is in a very, this [01:02:10] is very true for me, where once I started to find that I mistook emotional volatility as emotional awareness. Mm-hmm. Right. That like freedom to express that is [01:02:20] not. That's not what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Terry real, it makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. Terry real called it like righteous indignance like this, oh yeah. This [01:02:30] identity that I get to because you've hurt me or because you're not listening to me. Then I get to be just that like, I, I'm right. I'm right in doing that, and because [01:02:40] you're not meeting my needs, then I get to fight back. Mm-hmm. And it's just like, that is, yes, I'm a woman and my, my voice is very important to be [01:02:50] heard, but it's also my responsibility to be able to vocalize in a way, as a communicator to be heard. I'm not fighting a war [01:03:00] here. Draw hard pits. Yeah. We're not, we're not throwing my emotional response at you. We're leveraging my emotions to help us understand what we need. Right. Yeah. That's hard. It's a [01:03:10] hard balance to find. Yeah. Now is the, you said you didn't wanna push into the other question, so I'm guessing the way that your femininity empowered you. Was turning that corner on that. Yeah. [01:03:20] So, so once I realized like, oh my God, like what am I doing here? I realized the power in being feminine is being calm, [01:03:30] assured, like self-assured, right? Uh, being compassionate, uh, in a way that I can take in the information [01:03:40] what is being heard, what is being said to me. Not being defensive, not being reactive, and take some time and say, you know what? There is power in my [01:03:50] words and there is care and love in my words. Even if I'm telling you I need something the way that I deliver it. And I'm not [01:04:00] one to tiptoe on my words, but I can still say it in a caring way where, uh, I feel. I feel [01:04:10] held, and my relationship is not at the detriment of, of that. So, so I think knowing that, um, I was behaving this way was [01:04:20] shocking, but then I, one value that I have is growth. So someone tells me, Hey, this isn't working. What you're doing is hurtful and harmful. I [01:04:30] reflect and I try to pay attention to is, is that a them thing or is it really a me thing? And so once I realized that I am [01:04:40] being hurtful and it's a me thing, I, I figure out how to grow from that. And I think that was the most beautiful thing that I've ever done. I actually have more clarity with my life. [01:04:50] Um, I have more clarity in my relationships. My boundaries are very clear. I even, I'm more boundary with myself as well. I'm more disciplined, like it [01:05:00] has changed my life where I feel the most joy in my life, in the most content. Yeah. I always like the, uh, the firm I use a lot with clients on that is like your [01:05:10] emotions if they're done well or like your compass mm-hmm. They just give you a direction to look in and move towards. Mm-hmm. It shouldn't be a rocket. Yeah. Where it's just this uncontrollable thing that's forcing [01:05:20] you Yeah. Somewhere. It's just so much chaos where you're just mo you don't know, which you are reacting to so many things and you don't know where you're going. And I felt the [01:05:30] most stable and certain and Sure. In my life where I can just take a moment and say, okay, which direction do I need to [01:05:40] go? Yeah. Yeah. And I was also thinking while you were telling that story about you, you never being w men's words, one of the things, [01:05:50] like we didn't have a lot of classes together. Right. But I loved when you were in them. Mm-hmm. Because I could depend on your words. [01:06:00] To not bullshit me. Like the, you know, counselors, they tend to be like, especially counselors in grad school. Mm-hmm. They're very nice. Mm-hmm. Which means they're not telling you what the boundaries [01:06:10] are. They're not all of a sudden they're just like, looking at you flying. Mm-hmm. I hold that compliment very at that story deeply, all of that, because [01:06:20] I try really hard to, uh, be truthful in my words, but also be, especially in a professional space. [01:06:30] But I try to be truthful in my words. Um, uh, especially in, in, in a clinical space. Uh, being direct I think is the most effective and mm-hmm. Going [01:06:40] back to earlier, uh, my issue was I was too direct in a non-car way because, you know, in relationships it's a different. It's a different token [01:06:50] system. Well, and there's a, there's a huge difference between how we are professionally mm-hmm. And how we are with our people. Yeah. Because we're a lot more emotionally volatile with our people because [01:07:00] they're inside. Mm-hmm. Where your professional, if you keep it together a lot more, and so that makes all the sense in the world than you with that, all of a sudden it's a rocket and it's, you know, hurting somebody over here [01:07:10] and there. Yeah. So I've learned to contain it, but also still have the emotional openness that I would, I wouldn't have in our grad program or in a clinical space.[01:07:20] Mm-hmm. But I do have that emotional openness and clarity and say, you know, after some time I've thought about this and here, here's what [01:07:30] happened, and here's what I feel about this and here's my opinion about this, and this is what I would hope. For us to do with this information. [01:07:40] Yeah. I always like the, like this is my informed opinion. Mm-hmm. I took time with this. This isn't you. You need to hear this. This isn't me just talking off the cuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, [01:07:50] I think people really like, I certainly respond when someone says that, like, it, it makes you, you know, sit up and listen. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. [01:08:00] Well, I should probably let you get back to your family. Know that I've held you all along. Thank you so much for having me. Uh, this is definitely, uh, uh, [01:08:10] uh, an audience that I, I want to, to talk with more, so I appreciate the opportunity to, uh, share my knowledge with your [01:08:20] audience. It's wonderful to have you here. Thank you. And that's our conversation with Latrice. I just wanna clean up a few things really quick. One, I know this was a really heteronormative episode [01:08:30] that's primarily La Therese's background is working with heterosexual couples, so that's what we focused on. I'm working on getting on an L-G-B-T-Q, specialized family and couples therapists, so we can broaden that perspective [01:08:40] out. But I haven't been able to line one up just yet. Additionally, it's important to know that the nice guy thing isn't just something in the manosphere. There's really good research backing it up, both from the Gottman's [01:08:50] and any number of other resources on how when you contain yourself to the point that it starts to damage you, it starts to damage your partner. So if you found yourself thinking of being stuck in these patterns [01:09:00] as we talked about 'em, I hope you find some resources and help on it. Latrice has a great website and Instagram where she shares a bunch of different worksheets, guides, and helpful tips [01:09:10] on how to do these things. I highly encourage you to check that out. Additionally, I want to ask you a favor. If you could like, comment or rate the podcast wherever you're listening [01:09:20] or watching, it would really help us out. We really wanna build this out and get this information to as many people as possible. I want to help. I wanna make sure that these are going out there, and that only [01:09:30] happens if you all let people know it's happening. So please take a moment and do that. If you found this helpful. Next week's episode is on domestic violence and masculinity. I'll see you [01:09:40] [01:09:50] there.