00:00:26:04 - 00:00:44:10 Tim How can the 12 step program help guys refine their masculinity in healthy ways? What does it look like when men take their healing away from control and isolation, and to connection and growth? If you're curious about either of those questions, you're in the right place. My name is Tim Wilkie. This is American masculinity. And on our 12th episode, we're bringing on Kevin Peterson. 00:00:44:12 - 00:01:02:08 Tim Kevin is a multi-decade clinician who's been in recovery for 35 years. He did with the most noble of us do. He took his experience and his pain and figured out how to use that to help others. We're so lucky he's in the world, and I'm really happy to bring him on to share his insights with you. Remember, this isn't therapy and this isn't going to be recovery. 00:01:02:11 - 00:01:18:24 Tim This is going to help you be a little curious about these processes. If these are resources that you need, go find him. This will be a little crack in the door, but it won't get you there. So if this sounds good, if for Kevin's perchance you sounds like something you're looking for. Go find it. I hope you get the help you need. 00:01:18:26 - 00:01:28:06 Tim With all that said, let's get started. 00:01:28:08 - 00:01:31:19 Tim Hey, Kevin, thanks so much for coming on. And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. 00:01:31:22 - 00:01:37:25 Kevin Oh, it's my pleasure, man. It's great to see you and I have been looking forward to this all week. This is fantastic. 00:01:37:27 - 00:02:00:24 Tim I always like talking to you about addiction because you're one of my trusted people around. Integration of 12 step like you and I's perspective differs a little bit as I don't think it's required. I think it's just very, very useful. But you're one of the people I can call if I need to, and say, what? What's going on with this meeting in this part of town? 00:02:00:24 - 00:02:07:08 Tim Why doesn't this person like lining up? And it's fantastic. So I'm really excited that we're going to share some of that here with the folks. 00:02:07:10 - 00:02:08:09 Kevin Me too. 00:02:08:12 - 00:02:28:20 Tim I guess the first thing that I want to ask about is masculinity and 12 step. So we know addiction is primarily guys, right? More men than women struggle with addiction. Women struggle harder when they do. But how does 12 step influence your masculinity and your client's masculinity? 00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:08 Kevin Okay, we're. 00:02:29:08 - 00:02:31:29 Kevin Going to start right off. 00:02:32:01 - 00:02:32:07 Speaker 3 Just. 00:02:32:07 - 00:02:32:25 Tim Jumping right. 00:02:32:25 - 00:02:33:26 Speaker 3 In. 00:02:33:29 - 00:02:58:09 Kevin The deep end has been found. That's a great question. You know, and it's, it's one that I've actually been reflecting on, for a couple of different reasons. One, is that last Monday, was, 34 years for me sober. And so when we get to our anniversaries, we tend to ruminate or think or, you know, look at that. 00:02:58:10 - 00:03:24:21 Kevin And so I was looking at your questions and sort of searching on that. And so here's the thing that I think is really important for me. And the answer to the first part of the question. The 12 steps, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, whatever you want to, wherever you want to go with that. When you look at the 12 steps, the first half, half of the first step says we were powerless over alcohol. 00:03:24:22 - 00:03:50:15 Kevin Insert blank. Whatever. Fill in the blank. And that's the last time we talked about drugs or alcohol in the 12 steps. And then the second half says, and our lives had become unmanageable. So so you can look at, you know, 11.5 steps are going to be focused on how you behave, how you interact with other people, how you rub elbows, how you treat people, how the kind of treatment you accept in people. 00:03:50:18 - 00:04:13:03 Kevin And that's the that's kind of the, I would say the big secret, right? Or not secret, but like, you know, is that in the recovery world, you know, people that come just to get sober, that's great. But they're they're only getting about 5% of what we offer. You know what? We we offer the other 95% of what we offer is learning how to rearrange your life and go after things. 00:04:13:05 - 00:04:32:09 Kevin So. So for a man, like when I got sober, I was 27. And, I mean, I think I might have had some concepts or ideas. I had done a lot of therapy with my dad and, you know, read Iron John and stuff like that and really got into Joseph Campbell. So I was definitely sort of delving into what is masculinity, what isn't. 00:04:32:11 - 00:04:57:18 Kevin But for me, it was very much, I could read all that stuff intellectually, but I didn't know how to put it into practice. You know, I didn't I didn't understand what that meant. So through the 12 step process, you know, all the different parts I started realizing that that's where I was applying it, you know, and, you know, big pieces, obviously, you know, how we, you know, we write inventory in the fourth step. 00:04:57:18 - 00:05:17:09 Kevin Right? And the inventory has three parts, right? There's there's resentment, there's fear, and then there's sex. It's actually conduct. It's not sex. And it's it's how we behave in relationships. And you know, the first time I went through that with my sponsor back in Los Angeles, you know, I had long resentment. Listen. And everyone you know, everyone says the same thing. 00:05:17:10 - 00:05:34:17 Kevin I'm not mad at anybody. It's like, yeah, nice try. You walked in here today, pissed at the guy that took your parking spot. So let's just start there, you know? And that's okay. You know, you just got to work your way through that stuff, right? And then and there's a process, right? The resentment has a do we call it four column inventory. 00:05:34:19 - 00:05:54:24 Kevin And it has a there's an exercise that you go through. Fear is the same thing. But as time goes on, you can you continue to do the process the 12 steps over and you write inventory over and over. You start getting to the core, right? I'm afraid of being alone, you know. I'm afraid of recreating my parents marriage. 00:05:54:27 - 00:06:18:07 Kevin You know, I'm afraid of that. I'm never going to find anybody, you know. And I'm not afraid that I'm. I'm this is going to. I'm just going to be miserable the rest of my life. You know? That's the core stuff we start getting at. And then in conduct, you know, we start looking at how we treat people and relationships that we arouse jealousy, suspicion and bitterness, that we cheat on them, yet that we really just take full accountability. 00:06:18:15 - 00:06:45:20 Kevin That was the first time in my life that another man helped me take full accountability for my behavior. And then in the fifth step, we share that. And then six and seven, we garner what we call the character defects, which really like when I was reading my inventory to my sponsor, he would say, write this down. You know, I, I use women for fill in the blank. 00:06:45:23 - 00:07:12:17 Kevin I lie, I cheat, I steal. So by the time we got done with that, I had my list of character defects. And it was very straightforward and simple and and then, then we get to the immense speeds. And for me, you know, there was a lot of, making amends was a lot of going after the relationships that I've had and, and explaining that not making amends, which means offering to make it right, you know, not apologizing. 00:07:12:17 - 00:07:16:06 Kevin And we apologize, but we're like, that's just the beginning, you know. 00:07:16:08 - 00:07:17:29 Tim Now there's accountability. 00:07:18:01 - 00:07:29:29 Kevin Well, right. And, you know, please tell me, please tell me how. So here's the four parts of amends. Here's what, here's what I remember doing. Please tell me how it affected you. Have I left anything out? That's I don't like that part. 00:07:30:02 - 00:07:30:09 Speaker 3 You. 00:07:30:09 - 00:07:47:25 Kevin Know. And then how can I make it right? And we really, if you take it seriously and you really do it, you know, your your. And the big fear, right? Is that you're always putting yourself in the other person's hands, but you're really not, you know, you're putting yourself into your higher powers hands or whatever you want to call it. 00:07:47:25 - 00:08:00:09 Kevin You know, again, accountability, you know, which I think is a huge part of masculinity for me, you know, it is a, you know, consistency, accountability and transparency. 00:08:00:11 - 00:08:01:14 Tim A man shows up. 00:08:01:16 - 00:08:20:16 Kevin And and that shows up in my masculinity now. And the other side of that, too, right, is that I want to be clear, this isn't about being perfect, you know, because I think part of being sober and part of being in recovery and part of being masculine or being a man is admitting to being imperfect and making mistakes. 00:08:20:16 - 00:08:40:17 Kevin And it's okay to make those mistakes and, you know, certain mistakes. You know, it's, you know, if you struggle with infidelity, it's not okay to keep making that mistake over and over. You know? But you learn that there, you know, you learn that that no, that's not okay. You know, a lot of guys, honestly, I swear to God I'm not making this up. 00:08:40:17 - 00:08:48:08 Kevin A lot of guys are like, oh, you know, everybody cheats. And I'm like, no, everybody that drinks and does drugs does. Yes. 00:08:48:11 - 00:08:48:24 Speaker 3 But. 00:08:48:27 - 00:09:09:16 Kevin You know, people that are sober are really battling to change, not just get rid of the drugs and alcohol. That's that's like the ticket to the show. You know, that's just that's the price of admission, right? The real show is how do I learn how to treat other people with dignity, respect, integrity. And how do I treat myself with that? 00:09:09:18 - 00:09:26:23 Kevin You know, how do I honor my parents? How do I honor my partner? How do I how do I show up for my friends and my family, and differently and behave differently? And when I make a mistake, am I willing to show up and be like, I was wrong? I shouldn't have done that. That was me. You know? 00:09:26:26 - 00:09:53:07 Tim Well, so it sounds like a lot of this for the 12 step is the the mentorship of it. That and I think I, I don't think I know I keep seeing this across my practice where guys come in and we've just lost a lot of the spaces where men used to mentor younger men. And 12 step is a beautiful place for that because it's part of it. 00:09:53:07 - 00:10:07:20 Tim Like immediately you walk in and somebody tries to step up to be your mentor and like you're talking about how we engage with people, integrate into the way we exist in the world, in our problems. And so of course, that has to be addressed. 00:10:07:22 - 00:10:29:15 Kevin Well, absolutely. And that's, you know, that's the thing. And I mean, and here's the here's sort of one of the central cause of that concept for us is we can get you sober and keep you sober. That's really not that hard. Believe it or not. But if we if we don't change the way you live, you will start drinking again. 00:10:29:17 - 00:10:52:19 Kevin Because you're back into that rhythm of lying, cheating, stealing, hustling, cutting corners. And so drinking and doing drugs starts to become normal again. And I want to be clear, we're not trying to be perfect. We're not trying to be puritanical. We're not trying to. I'm sober, therefore I am. You know, I am perfect. Quite the opposite, you know, it gives us a. 00:10:52:19 - 00:10:54:05 Speaker 3 Path. 00:10:54:08 - 00:11:16:02 Kevin Of how to behave. That is an instructional path from older men, right, that are like, you know, here, let me show you. I mean, this is one of the beauties of that process for a sponsor is I never tell people what to do. I'll tell my opinion, you know? But I'm like, this is your lesson. You need to learn this. 00:11:16:02 - 00:11:28:28 Kevin Now, I want to explain to you that when I was when I was in that situation, this is what I did. You need to do whatever you're going to do. And, but I just. I'll share with you my wisdom and my vision and my concept. 00:11:29:01 - 00:11:51:02 Tim But having space to share that on purpose is just hard to find anymore. And it's one of the reasons why, like, I refer back to 12 step so often for my sober clients, like last, I think it was just a few months ago, I had a guy who hit his 20 year of sobriety, but was moving back into being a dry drunk, and we just ran him. 00:11:51:02 - 00:12:09:08 Tim He just ran the steps again, right? He just reengaged in the process, picked it up from where he was in his life and found new and different things. It's one of those that as you work them, just like most clinical tools, I would say most tools for self-exploration work like this. You can do them once and you learn a lot, but the more you do them, the deeper you get. 00:12:09:08 - 00:12:14:29 Tim And yeah, they potter out at some point, but you can always come back to them after some dirt's been thrown back on. 00:12:15:01 - 00:12:44:20 Kevin Well, and and in that process, right in that, so in that 12 step process, when we get to 12, it's about carrying the message and sharing it with other people and making yourself available as a sponsor. You know. And that is probably the greatest joy, right, of recovery is, is having someone that you're connected with and talking to and, and just, you know, and look, everybody screws up. 00:12:44:20 - 00:12:52:09 Kevin Everybody does it wrong the first couple times. You know, it's just like therapy, right? The first you're first out of the gate, you're like, oh my God, what was I thinking. 00:12:52:12 - 00:12:53:15 Speaker 3 You know. 00:12:53:18 - 00:13:16:25 Kevin And but the critical thing there is that within our community, you know, we we offer to everyone what's going on, you know, I mean, and the and the cool part is a healthy recovery community. Let's just be clear. A healthy recovery community, your sponsor will look at you and say, I don't have any experience with that, but you should go talk to that guy. 00:13:17:00 - 00:13:33:07 Kevin That guy. I mean, this happened to me in my first year. I was in the in the hole with the IRS. I owed him like seven grand, you know, and I thought, oh my God, they're going to come get me. You know? And I talked to my sponsor and he was like, oh, Kevin, I owe them half $1 million. 00:13:33:09 - 00:13:34:09 Speaker 3 You know. 00:13:34:11 - 00:13:36:26 Tim Here's if I can give you a little bit of perspective there. 00:13:36:29 - 00:13:37:18 Speaker 3 Yeah, I. 00:13:37:18 - 00:13:51:09 Kevin Guess I'll he goes, you're fine. If you call the phone number, make a deal, they'll take the pay. Everything's going to be fine. Like. 00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:11 Kevin But I needed that guy to say, hey, you know, here's what's up and here's why and how and and all the way to me going back to graduate school. I have a friend in Boulder who's a nurse who's sober, my friend Brad. And, you know, he he was he was going to nursing school in 2007. And I sat him down. 00:14:13:11 - 00:14:38:08 Kevin I'm like, okay, I am 43 years old. I'm 17 years sober, and I am miserable. You know, this is this is horrible. And he's like, yeah, let's talk about it. I said, and and he had left the business world to go to, school. And I'm like, how did you come up with that? He's like, well, you know, so much of what we talk about in recovery is, you know, making ourselves available to others and helping others. 00:14:38:08 - 00:14:55:26 Kevin And he's like the people I look up to, the men I look up to, they are, you know, their doctors, their nurses, they're, you know, social workers. They work in corrections. You know, these are people that have dedicated their lives to helping other people. And he's I mean, he realized that's what I wanted. And I'm like, you're singing my tune. 00:14:55:28 - 00:14:59:09 Kevin He's like, I think you'd make a great therapist. And I said, yeah, I think so, too. 00:14:59:11 - 00:15:14:17 Tim I think that's one of the things that distinct community from like, like a support group or something like that. It's a group of people who know enough about each other to be able to show up and be of service to the community in their lane. 00:15:14:20 - 00:15:30:01 Kevin I mean, that's the whole thing, right? Is that like I go, back in Jacksonville, I go to a meeting Saturday morning and Sunday morning and they're both men's meetings, and not because I don't like women and I don't like being around women. I actually like going to meetings with them. I think they're fun. And they have really internet. 00:15:30:01 - 00:15:51:15 Kevin It's nice to engage and interact. And by the way, Todd just popped into my head in the coed meetings. I got taught how to behave and how to treat women because the older women and the older guys would watch me when I first got there, and I was using it like a bar, and they would pull me outside and go, we don't do that here. 00:15:51:18 - 00:16:14:05 Kevin That behavior is unacceptable. And I'm like, what do you mean? You know? And they're like, you know, and and so and now, of course, I find myself pulling guys aside like, hey, wait, you're making this an unsafe space for these women. It's not. Okay. And by the way, it goes both ways. You know, there there are women that are constantly, you know, looking for the next guy to fix them. 00:16:14:08 - 00:16:19:09 Kevin And, and even in the LGBTQ community, as well as in recovery. Yeah. 00:16:19:12 - 00:16:21:11 Tim The next partner to fix as well. 00:16:21:14 - 00:16:22:02 Kevin Yeah. Right. 00:16:22:04 - 00:16:24:09 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:24:12 - 00:16:42:15 Kevin So I mean, those lessons are just sort of, you know, generationally passed on. And I loved my father. My father was the reason I got sober. He's the one that cornered me and said, you either get sober or you're out of the family. And then and he held his ground. You know, I credit him with starting the process of saving my life. 00:16:42:22 - 00:16:53:03 Kevin But we never had these conversations, you know, and no fault of his. I mean, I love my dad, and he passed away, four years ago. 00:16:53:06 - 00:16:54:27 Tim And I'm sorry you lost him. 00:16:55:00 - 00:17:13:13 Kevin Oh. Thank you. I mean, it just, you know, it was just. This just wasn't him, you know? And I know his dad didn't have the conversation with him, you know, and they wouldn't even know how. And I. And I'm not saying I replaced my dad. Quite the opposite. I got to a space where I really learned to love and respect my father for what he did. 00:17:13:16 - 00:17:42:19 Kevin My mom was a prescription drug addict and had a lot of mental health issues. And God bless her, I loved her too. You know, my dad dealt with that. My dad was very successful while maintaining a household with with someone that was really struggling, you know, which created an interesting example. So what I witnessed as marriage is one person who's got it together and handles things, and one person who's kind of a disaster and has to be handled. 00:17:42:21 - 00:17:50:04 Kevin And so in my first marriage, what do you think I looked for, you know, and I followed the exact same model. 00:17:50:06 - 00:18:19:29 Tim Well, I think that's the other beautiful thing about good communities. We've talked about this. I really dislike the idea that a family unit is supposed to be all we're all we need is, particularly as children. There's no way 1 or 2 people can be everything a child or a person needs. And so I think there's a lot of people that come into therapy or come into 12 that are looking for those, those spaces that their fathers didn't fill, their mothers didn't fill. 00:18:20:02 - 00:18:30:11 Tim And you can find them there. But it also, as you find those supports, it's lets you see where your parents were for you, which is a really, really healing place to be. 00:18:30:14 - 00:18:54:17 Kevin And I will also share with you in a similar parallel route. I found women to sound wrong, but like, you know, mother me or you know, treat me like a son and be very kind and loving with me. And show me you know what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. And here's a big piece of what I should be accepting from women. 00:18:54:17 - 00:19:21:03 Kevin What I shouldn't be accepting from women. You know, behavior. And that also contributed to my masculinity is is the women mentoring me as well and saying, hey, look, I you need to be careful for x, y, Z. Don't don't fall into these traps where you're not the white knight. You know, you don't have a cap on. You know you're a man, you're a good man, you're a solid man, but you're not everything. 00:19:21:05 - 00:19:46:12 Tim Well, and I think that touches on something really important that I haven't talked about much yet. But there's this big push in the manosphere that men only need. Men and women are just there for whatever. And you need masculine and feminine mentorship in your life. You need people that are a little bit further along than you may be in this, and you need both perspectives. 00:19:46:14 - 00:19:56:02 Tim And it doesn't matter whether it's like a butch lesbian or an effeminate, male friend, there's a different energy in what they see in the world and what they can guide you through. 00:19:56:04 - 00:20:08:09 Kevin I was like 20 something years ago. I had a female friend that I was working with and, you know, and I was 36 or something along those lines, you know, way back. 00:20:08:12 - 00:20:10:28 Speaker 3 Way back then and. 00:20:10:28 - 00:20:11:27 Tim A long, long ago. 00:20:12:04 - 00:20:36:10 Kevin Yeah. And the previous century, you know, and, she and I were chatting and I was talking about dating and this, that and the other thing, and she's like, can I give you some advice? And I was like, yeah, sure. And she's like, you're sober. You're spiritually based, you're educated, you have a career, you're a good man, and you like children. 00:20:36:12 - 00:21:14:18 Kevin I'm like, yeah. She goes, you don't got to be putting up with any woman's nonsense. And she's like, you need to understand, Kevin. It's not like we were in college where everyone's chasing the hottie, you know? And she goes, women do the same thing, by the way. And I was like, yeah. And she's like, that's over at this age, people have either been married and divorced and been burned, severely burned, or they've been too scared to get, you know, get all the way in and, and she's like, you need to be super picky and super careful. 00:21:14:24 - 00:21:47:22 Kevin Now, I did not listen to her advice. It's the first time, but I the second time when I was 50 and I met my current wife, my current and final wife, I was really up front with her and the opening conversations. I was like, look, I'm 50 years old and this is what I want. I want a partner and I want a partner that's going to continue to work on their mental health for their sobriety, career, you know, etc., etc. and I want a partner where we can have really blunt and uncomfortable conversations together. 00:21:47:25 - 00:21:54:19 Kevin And, and we talked all that stuff out for like the first couple of weeks she was actually out of the country, you know. 00:21:54:24 - 00:22:01:03 Tim Oh, well, then I'm glad that slowed things down. So those conversations had some room to breathe right. 00:22:01:05 - 00:22:24:06 Kevin And and that really, I would tell you that was foundational for me and learning that it was okay for me to say those things. You know, I wasn't being selfish or rude or inconsiderate or demanding or, what's the current term, narcissistic or any of those, you know, overly masculine things? I was like, no, I'm just telling you, this is what I want. 00:22:24:08 - 00:22:43:14 Tim Well, and if you're not, you can be kind and direct at the same time. And I think that's where a lot of people get it mixed up. There is a kindness in direct to. It's to say to somebody, this is what I'm looking for and who I can be to you. Is that what you want? Can you provide that to me? 00:22:43:16 - 00:22:54:17 Tim Like, and if not. And that's true. That's what friends are for. That's what community is for. Like there's dozens, hundreds, thousands of lovely people that I adore in my life that will not be my wife. 00:22:54:19 - 00:23:30:12 Kevin But I think also, you know, and again, sort of circling back into the the 12 steps in recovery and how that plays into masculinity. Those were the places where I found, people to sort of walk me through that I had I had a woman in LA when I was back living there and in the early 90s who, you know, she was my mother's age and, we were we worked at the same place and went to meetings and, and one time we were sitting and chatting and, and I was like, oh, yeah, I know, you know, I cook, I clean, I do my own laundry, but I'm very self-sufficient and self-sufficient. 00:23:30:12 - 00:23:47:14 Kevin And she looked at me. She's like, I have a question for you. And I said, okay. She goes, I don't want you to get offended. I said, okay. She's like, where? Where is your mother? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, Kevin. Most men your age don't know how to do that stuff. They're not self-sufficient. They don't know how to cook. 00:23:47:16 - 00:24:06:08 Kevin They don't know how to clean. They don't know how to do laundry. They might have an idea, but you're very efficient at all of those things. And generally that's something that's done for you as a child. I'm like, oh yeah, that wasn't my house. You know, we we had to learn how to handle that stuff on our own. 00:24:06:10 - 00:24:30:15 Kevin So and I'm going to tie this back to my wife today, my lovely, amazing wife Amy. You know, we got married in 2016 and we had some rough times. You know, we've had some there's been some big challenges, right? There's been she had cancer 2018. There's been a lot of, all of our parents have died. You know, and there's just been a lot of trauma, a ton of trauma. 00:24:30:17 - 00:24:49:25 Kevin And we're really we've come out of it to another side. But we had a we had a conversation, I want to say, a couple of years ago. And I was like, look, here's the thing you need to understand. This is how I was raised. I came home and I didn't know if it was going to be mom, drunk mom, or stoned or passed out mom. 00:24:49:27 - 00:25:05:17 Kevin And so I never knew what I was coming into the house. I never knew, I never knew was the house going to be clean. And we lived in a beautiful multi-million dollar home. Was it going to be clean? Was there going to be dinner? You know, is it going to be organized? You know, it was. And those are the things I said. 00:25:05:20 - 00:25:28:18 Kevin Those are the things I crave. I crave structure, I crave, you know, having someone cook for me and not because you're the woman. I was really clear. I'm like, that's I don't see that as your job. I'll cook. I love cooking, but my thing that I love and embrace is when somebody cooks for me or takes care of me. 00:25:28:20 - 00:25:32:24 Kevin And I don't mean like a child, like an infant. I know, I know, you know what I'm saying? 00:25:32:27 - 00:25:39:06 Tim Yeah, just some tending. That's how I refer to it. For me, it's like just a little tending when I'm having a rough day goes a long way. 00:25:39:08 - 00:26:00:21 Kevin Or just in the general connection of our relationship I was giving her clear path is these are the things I like and want and that make me feel safe and secure. And she has done the same thing. These are the things that I want from my partner. Got it? I will do those things. You know, again, I learned that in sobriety. 00:26:00:23 - 00:26:22:08 Tim Yeah. That is the one hilarious thing when you walk into a meeting, which, by the way, everybody listening, there are open meetings where you don't need to be in recovery to go. And if you have someone in your life in recovery, I really advise you to go do that at least once. But one of the things I love about being in that room is everyone's pretty straight line. 00:26:22:11 - 00:26:30:22 Tim Like there's not a lot of like, dissemination or like backbiting. Everybody is very direct and whatever's going on for the most part, and it's kind of nice. 00:26:30:24 - 00:26:54:27 Kevin Yeah, no, there's no doubt. I mean, people tend to be pretty genuine and pretty authentic. Now the other side of that is right. You know, people that are new are still struggling with, you know, staying sober and, you know, waking up and like, oh my God. There's also there's a lot of, you know, people that are newly sober, you know, tend to start having feelings and emotions that they haven't had for a long time. 00:26:55:00 - 00:27:18:11 Kevin And so they really struggle with that. And, you know, they got to sort through that. By the way, I am also a massive advocate in the world of recovery. And and the roots of recovery is that's not a responsibility. Our job is to get you sober and teach you how to behave like an adult. That's it. Therapists will help you learn how to process your emotions and your feelings. 00:27:18:13 - 00:27:25:23 Kevin That's their job, and they're there to help you for that. But if you aren't sober, they can't do their job. 00:27:25:26 - 00:27:33:15 Tim That, you know, our job becomes helping you manage the consequences of your use, which frankly. 00:27:33:17 - 00:27:41:01 Kevin You know, and I love my therapist friends. We're just better at that because it's our personal experience. 00:27:41:04 - 00:28:03:28 Tim Well, I also it breaks down I, I did an episode that's I think it's going to come out next week on levels of care. And essentially it just puts you into case management. When somebody is actively using, you're not doing therapy, you're doing case management. If you're doing your job well, you're trying to help them see the consequences of what's happening, how to cope with them, and so that they can make an informed decision about when to stop. 00:28:04:01 - 00:28:13:19 Tim But your idea is that kind of mirror of would this happen if you weren't there that Friday night? Would this happen if that hadn't been part of the equation? 00:28:13:21 - 00:28:26:28 Kevin Absolutely. I can tell you from my experience when I was still drinking and using, when that was there, this would start saying stuff like that to me. I would be like, oh man, I gotta find a new therapist. 00:28:27:00 - 00:28:28:24 Speaker 3 You know? 00:28:28:26 - 00:28:32:18 Tim I need somebody that'll just tell me to shut the hell up and do the thing. Yeah. 00:28:32:20 - 00:28:39:00 Kevin Yeah. I mean, I didn't come here for accountability, you know? 00:28:39:03 - 00:28:43:13 Tim Did that ever change for you, or is that still just where you go to 12 step for that? 00:28:43:16 - 00:29:05:04 Kevin No, I think the two can go together. I think someone who's enlightened on both sides. Right. I think a good sponsor and a good therapist, here. And here's the hey, I'll throw this in too. So I used to go to, church in downtown Denver, Central Presbyterian, this big, beautiful, old, gorgeous Presbyterian church. And the minister, there was somebody I really looked up to. 00:29:05:07 - 00:29:25:11 Kevin He's really awesome. And I'm in my AA. One of my AA meetings was there to say, and, and the minister was this great guy named Mark Ramsey, and, and he and I were talking about, you know, my sobriety, church, faith, etc., etc. and he's like, Kevin, I want to be really clear. It's not my job to get you sober or keep you sober. 00:29:25:14 - 00:29:45:04 Kevin That's a job. My job is to help you expand your faith. And but. And I can't do that if you're not sober. So I want you to go to meetings. I would never tell you not to go to meetings. I want you to go to meetings. But I also want you to engage in what we offer, because I think we can enhance your understanding of the world and your life. 00:29:45:06 - 00:29:55:24 Kevin And I was like, yeah. And I think the same thing goes with therapy, right? I think for me, I have a wonderful therapist that I think walks on. Well, if she walks on water, but she's pretty awesome. 00:29:55:26 - 00:29:57:18 Tim She doesn't. Your sessions. 00:29:57:20 - 00:29:57:29 Kevin Yeah. 00:29:57:29 - 00:29:59:14 Speaker 3 Well, right. 00:29:59:16 - 00:30:18:13 Kevin She's very 12 step savvy. She, she knows the gig. You know, she's very, very knowledgeable. And to be totally blunt, she's confided in me a little, a smidge that that was her family system. And that's why she does this, you know? And and I need someone for my therapist. I need someone that understands my world and are two of my worlds, right? 00:30:18:13 - 00:30:23:19 Kevin My therapy world, in my recovery world. And she's perfect for me. She's absolutely perfect for me. 00:30:23:23 - 00:30:27:22 Tim Yeah, because she integrates. But how many therapist did you go through to find her. 00:30:27:24 - 00:30:55:24 Kevin Bro? I was, at that point, I was 30 years sober. Okay? And I've done therapy pretty consistently for the last, well, since 2008. Right. So when I went back to graduate school and, and I had wonderful therapists and not to say anything like that, you know, but but okay, so here's what happened. My father passed away in July of 2021. 00:30:55:26 - 00:31:18:10 Kevin My mom died in 2014, towards the end of the year of 2021 and rolling, rolling into 2022, I was really struggling. I mean, really struggling. And, and my wife said, she's like, I want to talk to you about something, but I just don't want you to get mad or angry or defensive. And I'm like, too late, you know? 00:31:18:11 - 00:31:19:27 Tim Now I am. Let's go. 00:31:19:29 - 00:31:32:26 Kevin Yeah. And I'm like, what's up? And she's like, you're so angry. You're so angry. And I, she's. I think you need some help. I think you need to talk to somebody. And I was like, and I had been seeing someone that it just wasn't going anywhere, you know. 00:31:33:01 - 00:31:34:14 Tim Or did ran its course. 00:31:34:16 - 00:31:53:25 Kevin Right. And I was like, yeah, you're right. You know, you're totally right, honey. You're completely right. I said, I have someone in mind, I'm going to call her and make an appointment with her. And I called her and we had a phone conference, and she said, well, Kevin, I want to let you know something. I process grief and loss through trauma. 00:31:53:27 - 00:32:05:06 Kevin So if you're up for that journey, I'm up for working with you. I was like, oh, this is going to suck. And and it's been amazing. 00:32:05:09 - 00:32:08:04 Tim Better on the other side, though. 00:32:08:06 - 00:32:10:27 Kevin And it's still, still there's, it's still there. 00:32:11:02 - 00:32:16:18 Tim And that grief never goes away entirely. That's a hole in your life that you got to learn how to operate around. 00:32:16:21 - 00:32:41:10 Kevin Yeah. Or with it. I mean, it's just it's part of who you are, you know, it's it's it's as we get older, we experience more grief situations and we have to learn that. That's part of life, I guess where I learned that, you know, and I learned that, in a lot of the 12 step engagement and my sponsorship engagement, where, you know, we would go through courses of life together, right? 00:32:41:13 - 00:32:48:18 Kevin Marriage, divorce, you know, struggling financially, success, school graduation. 00:32:48:20 - 00:33:08:24 Tim All those transition points are so key to have mentorship around. And I think like, that's one of the things that a lot of people don't generally understand is that if you've been going through your life and you've been doing okay, and all of a sudden you're not, it's usually around a time that something pretty big changed. And it's because the way that you've been operating the world isn't working for your new world. 00:33:08:26 - 00:33:14:06 Tim And that's where 12 steps great, because someone in that room has made that that step. 00:33:14:08 - 00:33:34:21 Kevin Absolutely. You know, I mean, just the, the even when it's just sort of an off comment of someone. I remember my first year sober, I, I had I had always had jobs where I made a lot of money, and so I was always very generous and gifting and presence of, Christmas, which we could do a whole episode on that. 00:33:34:21 - 00:33:52:04 Kevin Let me tell you, I've had to learn a lot about that process. But, I was working a really, like, a subsistence level job, man, and I was living, like, in a $400 a month room in a house, and I was barely getting by, and I was in an AA meeting. I was freaking out. I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. 00:33:52:06 - 00:34:23:26 Kevin My my family, you know, we we were generous and I'm just worried, what's my dad going to think? And this old guy's name was Ed and he looked at me. He's like, Kevin, the gift you're giving your family is that you're sober and that you're alive. And you know, that's he you have. Do you understand what a massive gift that is that you're giving them and the how positive, how happy that we we said and, you know, as far as your dad, get him a tie and if he doesn't like it, fuck him. 00:34:23:29 - 00:34:28:07 Kevin I was like, oh right. Perspective. 00:34:28:10 - 00:34:45:07 Tim I'm highly amused that your room at the low point was 400 a month in a house, because that's exactly where I was right before I joined the military, in that same kind of situation of just like, I can't get it together. I'm not finding work. This isn't going well, I need something. 00:34:45:07 - 00:34:46:00 Kevin Yeah, man. 00:34:46:02 - 00:34:52:27 Tim And it sounds like you had some some good guidance and it got you where you need to go. And now you're doing just fine. 00:34:52:29 - 00:34:57:22 Kevin You know? I mean, my life's great. It's not perfect. It's great, you know? 00:34:57:25 - 00:35:15:09 Tim Well, you meeting goes a long way. And once you can find a way to have money and have meaning, meaningful work in your life. And I want to be really clear. You don't need to do, like, public service work to be happy. If your job pays you enough for you, to give you the freedom to go do that, that works too. 00:35:15:12 - 00:35:16:23 Tim But you need both. 00:35:16:25 - 00:35:35:15 Kevin Absolutely. And and, you know, I mean, just to be totally blunt, I think at 18 years old, the last thing I should have done is gone to college. You know, that that was a huge mistake in judgment on my part. And but it was what was expected, you know, I should have followed you. I should have gone to the military. 00:35:35:18 - 00:35:52:21 Tim Well, yeah. And that's that's been really nice with the newest generation of guys is they're slowing that down a lot more because they watch so many of us crash and burn through it. And we know that guys generally don't make it through college now their first time, like, I think only 1 in 4 was the data quoted in Reeves's book. 00:35:52:21 - 00:36:12:19 Tim I'll I'll double check that and put that up. But it makes sense sometimes to be out in the world before picking education and debt. The problem I'm finding lately with some of the young guys is they don't go out into the world, they stay living at home, they don't go get the crap job. You need to get out of the house and go work the crap job. 00:36:12:21 - 00:36:28:17 Tim I know it's harder because of the cost of living, and everything has gotten so much worse, and it's so much harder to survive on your own with a subsistence job. But you got to find something because that gives you the direction to find your thing and a reason to go find it. It's too comfortable at home. 00:36:28:19 - 00:36:45:08 Kevin Absolutely. Man, I could not agree with you more. I mean, and I, I mean, I, you know, so I mean, after I flunked out of college and went back home and I was, you know, bartending and and selling weed because it was, you know, 1990 and that's what you did, you know. And. 00:36:45:10 - 00:36:48:06 Tim Well, and that's a good side gig when you're bartending. 00:36:48:08 - 00:36:52:27 Kevin Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, nowadays they call it a side hustle, you know. But that's just what we. 00:36:52:27 - 00:36:53:08 Speaker 3 Did. 00:36:53:08 - 00:37:24:16 Kevin You know? And it's not even illegal anymore. And when I as I was my, my dad confronted me when I was 26 and I didn't get sober till I was 27. And in that nine months of that space, right that August to May, I and I started seeing a therapist with him, a guy, a great guy. And I started and we started having these amazing conversations where he and I started putting all our cards on the table, him telling me about his life and the expectations placed on him, me telling me. 00:37:24:21 - 00:37:33:20 Kevin And it was everything was a, you know, there was no there was no jockeying for position. And it was, you know, it was amazing, right? 00:37:33:22 - 00:37:36:14 Tim There was safety because that was what that was space was for. 00:37:36:16 - 00:37:58:12 Kevin Right? Exactly. But one of the byproducts of that is I started looking around at my life and I was like, I am 27 years old and I'm bartending at a really nice restaurant and a really nice place, but I have achieved, you know, I have maxed out, you know, I'm probably making, you know, a couple hundred dollars a day. 00:37:58:15 - 00:38:19:17 Kevin This is 1990, 1991, two, $300 a day salary, you know, blah, blah, blah. And hourly or whatever. But this is it. It's not going to get any better, you know, and, and I saw the guys that were twice my age doing the same thing I was doing, and I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. 00:38:19:21 - 00:38:28:29 Tim Well, and service work can get really isolating too, just because you're working such off hours from everybody else that it makes it really hard to have a life outside of the service industry. 00:38:29:01 - 00:38:36:25 Kevin Yeah. Well, and then, you know that that industry tends to have a lot of folks that are struggling, you know, because it's quick cash and easy. 00:38:36:27 - 00:39:09:18 Tim I want to kind of because I've been kind of struggling with how to direct some clients. And this I was looking forward to talking to you about it. Let's say that someone's newly sober. They they've hit their wall and they need to go get sober, and they're going to go shop meetings. One of the things that I think a lot of people don't fully understand about 12 step is if you're in a metropolitan area, there are literally hundreds, and they have drastically different fields with drastically different people, which means that when you walk into one and it doesn't feel right, stay for the meeting and then go find a different one. 00:39:09:20 - 00:39:17:01 Tim What could speed up that process for people when you've got to get clients through that? What what are the tips you give them when they're shopping those meetings? 00:39:17:03 - 00:39:36:28 Kevin Like if somebody if it's a client or even like a friend. I had a friend call me today, actually, and I was like, you know, you want to find your tribe, you know your people, right? So what that means is, you know, you probably want to, you know, when you look through the guide, there's a great app. 00:39:36:28 - 00:39:57:24 Kevin Now, by the way, it's just a it's a folding chair, which is what we use, you know, and men, women, gay, you know, topics, speakers. I always tell people, go try on speaker meetings. You just you just have to listen for an hour, you know, got to talk. You know, and and you know what? Try a men's meeting. 00:39:57:24 - 00:40:18:10 Kevin You might feel more comfortable there, you know, and you try women's meeting. You might feel safer for women especially. They just it's so important for them to feel incredibly safe, you know. And I think that's really critical. My wife only goes to women's meetings. You know, she just she's like, I'm at the point where that's just where I want to be, you know? 00:40:18:12 - 00:40:48:10 Tim And I don't think there's anything wrong with needing gendered space. Right. And I don't I don't think that's a masculine or feminine thing. I think we just need to be around each other sometimes for a certain kind of problem, certain kind of energy. And so what I'm what I'm hearing you say is the essentially you've just got to go and do the reps, but go try different things like go to different areas of town, go try different types of meetings, don't just kind of go hit the three meetings closest to you. 00:40:48:13 - 00:41:10:27 Kevin Well, yes. And you can also be like, you know, if you live in Cherry Creek, try the Cherry Creek meetings. They're probably your people. You know, if you don't like it, try another one. You know. And the other side of it too, is some people, you know, some people are early morning people, man. They love that 7 a.m. stuff, you know? 00:41:11:00 - 00:41:35:13 Kevin I mean, you got to pull my fingernails out to get me to do that, you know? But I, you know, but I like, you know, I like going to a meeting by 8 or 9:00 in the morning, you know, and it's when I'm there, it's when I'm emotionally present. You know, it's really funny, as I've gotten I used to go to meetings that would start at 7 or 8 in the evening, you know, and I love them, I do it, I'm in bed by. 00:41:35:15 - 00:41:37:26 Speaker 3 And you know. 00:41:38:02 - 00:41:45:06 Tim Yeah, that's a little that's a, that's a little heavy for a late night thing for me anymore. My last session ends at four. 00:41:45:08 - 00:41:46:01 Speaker 3 Right. 00:41:46:03 - 00:42:11:27 Kevin Exactly. And so I, I definitely, you know, I encourage people and because I know the, the, the atmosphere of the stratosphere in Colorado, I tend when somebody says, hey, I've got a guy who's 40 years old, he's got kids, he's got a wife, he's in the commercial real estate business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, okay, send him here. 00:42:12:00 - 00:42:14:12 Kevin You know, I know where those people are. 00:42:14:14 - 00:42:32:05 Tim Yeah. You're one of the you're one of the numbers I have for that. And I think that's important if somebody is moving into recovery, that's why you need a therapist that understands addiction and recovery. Because even if we don't know the meetings, we should know someone who does that. We can call and get you some guidance. 00:42:32:07 - 00:42:50:13 Kevin Absolutely. I mean, absolutely, and I'm happy to dispense that to anyone at any time. I mean, I definitely get emails and texts and calls like, hey, I have a woman, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I like, oh, yeah, you know, go here, call this person, check it out, see what you think you know. 00:42:50:17 - 00:43:02:22 Tim Well, that's one of the reasons why I found you and why I like you so much, is that you're a guy who joins community by being of service to community, and you can't beat that in a person in your life. 00:43:02:25 - 00:43:22:01 Kevin I think it's super important. And you mentioned this earlier for therapists to learn more about the 12 step community, because what I tend to get, I'll just be honest, what I tend to get is they're listening to their clients, tell them how awful it is, and then they talk to me and they're like, well, she doesn't want to go to AA. 00:43:22:01 - 00:43:44:26 Kevin It's too religious. And I'm like, you've known me for ten years. Do I strike you as a particularly religious person? No. I've been going to AA for 34 years, my friend. Why would you take the the knowledge of someone who's tried it once and is still drinking, as opposed to doing your own understanding of who we are and what we are? 00:43:44:29 - 00:44:04:06 Kevin And by the way, we have atheist meetings. We have agnostic meetings, we have Buddhist meetings, you know. So don't don't throw me that. I mean, I see those posts on our therapists Facebook stuff all the time. No religion, no way. I'm like, oh my God, you just don't understand this. You know? That's that's not who we are. You know. 00:44:04:08 - 00:44:37:06 Tim What? I think it's just there's a lot of animosity between the recovery community and the mental health community. And that's why I like teaching the courses so much, because that tends to be where you find the bridge. People, right? Either people that are out of the recovery community coming in to trying to get that mental health community bill like you did, or people showing up in the mental health community, understanding that therapy isn't the only thing that can help people and shouldn't be the only thing helping almost anybody. 00:44:37:09 - 00:44:54:27 Tim Well, man, I want to be respectful of your time, and I still got to grab your stories here about you explicitly. So I think we get to just kind of jump into the personal questions. And I've been excited because I know you've been thinking about it. What's the truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12? That's still true today. 00:44:54:29 - 00:45:21:00 Kevin And I would say I learned this through example, not through anyone telling me, that it was, it was my dad's, use my dad as my reference. Was his job to provide and make sure that we were safe and protected and that we had food, clothing, housing, education. That was his job. Is to make sure that we had the, wherewithal to make those things occur. 00:45:21:03 - 00:45:23:11 Kevin And I'm not saying exclusive. Yeah. 00:45:23:14 - 00:45:45:10 Tim Like I would say, being in a provider's role is a masculine role, and that doesn't need to gender the role. Right. But I'm not saying what equipment somebody has to have, but there is something very masculine about being the person that goes and gets what the family needs on a structural level, while having somebody make sure that they're leading and taking the lead on the emotional things. 00:45:45:15 - 00:46:04:13 Tim And it doesn't mean that you don't cross those boundaries and back up the other person's lane. But I do think one of the ways that we've been talking about masculinity that's been kind of damaging is this idea that being a provider isn't masculine, and it and it just is, and it's okay that it is. It just doesn't need to be like a man doing it right. 00:46:04:13 - 00:46:12:08 Kevin It's not it's not only masculine, you know, but I would just say that in my world, that's how I was brought up. And I was like, oh, okay, got it. 00:46:12:10 - 00:46:25:04 Tim Well, and it sounds like your father was an exemplary dad for a guy of his time. He provided well. He provided the structure and stability he could, and he was not exactly the most emotionally communicative guy in the world, which that was his generation. 00:46:25:06 - 00:46:26:15 Kevin Absolutely. 00:46:26:17 - 00:46:46:08 Tim Yeah. I think that's been one of the really fun things about this question in particular is so many guys, it's it's usually about the dad, right? You don't learn lessons that early based on what people tell you. You will learn by watching. And so that question has been really, really fun. The next one is tell us about a time when your pursuit of men had hurt you. 00:46:46:11 - 00:47:09:17 Kevin Oh, yeah. No. Ironically, it was my first marriage. I was trying to step in my first my first wife was, divorced. Her husband was in prison. And she had two small children. And, man, I rode up on that white horse and put on my Superman outfit, and I was like, I have got this, and I will be and I will be handling things from here on out. 00:47:09:17 - 00:47:19:22 Kevin I will be solving problems and taking care of everything. Then I started chasing the drama. Right? Every time there was drama, I'd fix it. You make sense? 00:47:19:24 - 00:47:21:12 Tim Yeah. It made you feel safe. 00:47:21:15 - 00:47:46:22 Kevin Right? But instead of having the boundary of. Okay, so I'm here to provide. Everybody's safe, everybody's got food, everyone's got things are cooked, we got insurance. I make money, things are groovy. When she started creating all the drama and that created by overspending and causing trouble and stuff like that, I kept chasing that and trying to fix that because I thought that was I could handle it like it was my role. 00:47:46:22 - 00:48:10:16 Kevin Right? And it was something I was taught by my dad. Right? Because he had the same problem and that's not my problem. You know, that's not my job. That's not my job. You know, if you're doing things to destroy your life, I will speak to you and tell you, I think this is a mistake. And as my partner, I would like, you know, we need to talk about this and sort through this, but I'm not going to clean up your messes, you know? 00:48:10:19 - 00:48:25:24 Tim Yeah. The the fixing mentality. Yeah. It's a hard one. And coming out of a family of addiction, it's so like because that's what we did as kids, right. Not only the dad but everybody was just trying to fix the mess from the person using all the time. 00:48:25:26 - 00:48:26:25 Kevin That was your job. 00:48:26:28 - 00:48:33:05 Tim And ironically, it was also one of the things that made my first marriage not go well. We have that in common. 00:48:33:07 - 00:48:36:10 Kevin How about that? Who would have thought? 00:48:36:13 - 00:48:53:23 Tim Yeah, well, and it's it's interesting too, because one of the things around that, that I think a lot of people don't understand when they talk about it, because we talk about it from the fixers perspective. Right. That like that's in you and you're trying to do this. But one of the things that often gets left out is you're setting up the other person for failure. 00:48:53:25 - 00:49:02:12 Tim You're structuring things to be the fixer, which doesn't let them be the competent adult that they probably are. And they're usually not asking for it. 00:49:02:14 - 00:49:27:02 Kevin You're creating a codependency where you're the you're the rescuer, you're the enabler, you're the problem solver, you're the fixer, which doesn't allow the other person to learn how to take care of themselves and solve their problems and learn from their mistakes. You know, when you're constantly jumping in to fix their like, what you're teaching them is, I don't have to do this. 00:49:27:02 - 00:49:28:00 Kevin He'll take care of it. 00:49:28:07 - 00:49:33:18 Tim Or he won't let me do this. That kind of dynamic becomes controlling at a certain point. 00:49:33:20 - 00:49:49:04 Kevin And the other the subliminal message to that or the unders, the underside underbelly message to that is he thinks I'm incompetent. You know, they think I'm stupid, you know, and that's the message that that gets sent across when someone is constantly trying to fix you. 00:49:49:06 - 00:50:06:00 Tim Yeah. Falling into that pattern is probably the single greatest regret of my life. Was my that happening in my marriage as well? It's a hard thing to come out on the other side of, and I very much relate to that story. Like I knew we had things in common. I didn't know about that one. 00:50:06:02 - 00:50:11:00 Speaker 3 Who would have thought? And look what we do for a living. 00:50:11:02 - 00:50:14:24 Tim Hey, those who can't do teach them. That's my that's my quote. I live by these days. 00:50:14:26 - 00:50:16:24 Kevin Yeah, right. Exactly. 00:50:16:27 - 00:50:28:06 Tim Oh, making making our mistakes and getting better. Speaking of getting better, we can jump into the last question. Tell us about a time where pursuing masculinity and manhood empowered you. 00:50:28:08 - 00:50:59:28 Kevin So in 2018, in April of 2018, my wife had a routine colonoscopy. And, the results came back that she had colorectal cancer. And the next day she had another full body scan. And they found out that she also had kidney cancer. And that launched us on basically a nine. Well, let's be clear, a nine month journey of treatment and then another two years of recovery. 00:51:00:02 - 00:51:23:14 Kevin Of chemo, radiation surgery. And I became her primary caretaker. My all the programing that I had that, you know, this is my wife, this is my partner, and it is my job to protect her and help her and not fix her because I knew I couldn't fix her or save her. But it was my job to make sure that, you know, things were in order so she could be helped and taken care of. 00:51:23:14 - 00:51:47:02 Kevin And, according to my wife, I did a very good job, you know, and, she's like, I can't imagine doing this with anybody but you. And then just to throw a bonus thing here, two years ago, this week, actually, we were in Copenhagen, Denmark. And the day before we left, she tripped and fell on a cobblestone street and broke her ankle in three places. 00:51:47:04 - 00:52:03:08 Kevin And, had to spend the night in the Danish hospital. And then we flew home. They put her on a soft case and gave her a bunch of blood thinners and medication. They're like, you need to go home. They don't stay. Here. We go. And we. We can do the surgery. But you're going to be here for months, and we're like, nope, we're out of here. 00:52:03:10 - 00:52:27:13 Kevin And and, we got flew back. But from May to September again, she couldn't walk. And I was her primary caretaker. And that that is definitely you know, I would say for me that was about being true to my masculinity and true to what I believe my responsibilities are, you know, and who I am as a person. I would tell you, I think that has a lot to do with, where we are now. 00:52:27:13 - 00:52:44:07 Kevin I mean, she cooks for me and she cooks for us almost every night. And that means a lot to me. You know, I said, I'll send her recipe suggestions like, hey, this looks really good. And so she can't eat red meat, right? Because she only has one kidney and the colorectal stuff. And and so, you know, I'm like, let's try this. 00:52:44:07 - 00:53:07:01 Kevin Let's try that. And she's like, okay, sure, I'll make that. Let's see how it goes. And then my job, I always tell her you can leave the kitchen a complete disaster. That is my job to clean that mess up. You went to the effort to making this wonderful, amazing, incredible dinner. I will take the responsibility of cleaning up, putting everything away, rearranging, you know, and. 00:53:07:01 - 00:53:08:23 Kevin And that's my. That's my gig. 00:53:08:28 - 00:53:11:23 Tim And that's the balance you all found. And it works for you. 00:53:11:25 - 00:53:25:04 Kevin Yeah. And I do. You know, I have to admit to the fact that I do, when she starts putting things in the dishwasher, I'm like, you know, I mean, I appreciate that. She was like, I know, I know, you're going to rearrange it. 00:53:25:06 - 00:53:41:18 Tim Well, Alan Alda made that quote in his book. If I understood you, would I have this look on my face was the title of the book, and it's basically just an empathetic communication book. And one of the things in there that always strikes a chord is the second most common fight in marriage is how to load the dishwasher. 00:53:41:20 - 00:54:05:14 Tim Well, Kevin, thanks so much, for coming on and sharing all this about about 12 step, at some point, I'm probably going to heckle you to see if we can get, like one of the 12 step skills that you'd recommend for just anybody. And I'll, I'll put that up with this just so people can have some more structure on what they're trying to do, and maybe have you come back on and talk about it at some point. 00:54:05:14 - 00:54:15:19 Tim But it's been really good hearing you talk about the work, man. I always love how you do, and I like having you in the community. I'm really glad we get to share you with the viewers today. 00:54:15:22 - 00:54:18:11 Kevin I thank you, I appreciate the opportunity. 00:54:18:13 - 00:54:36:00 Tim And that's our conversation with Kevin. We're so lucky he was willing to come on and share a story and insight with us. Sorry again about the video going out about the 14th mark, but we had the technical issue with Kevin off in the mountains. At least we could still hear the conversation. I'm glad it still worked out. There's only a few things we need to clarify and make sure that are lined up really well. 00:54:36:02 - 00:54:53:23 Tim So 12 step isn't just something that like Kevin and and other people and 12 step talk about being good. There's actually really good data behind it, talking about how community and the structures provided by 12 step really do help quite a few people with their recovery and maintain their absence from a substance. And that data keeps getting renewed. 00:54:53:25 - 00:55:12:11 Tim The second thing I'd like to check a little bit is on how masculinity shows up at 12 step. Things like accountability and transparency improves men engagement in mental health and recovery. That's also really well documented. It's one of those things that there just aren't a lot of places outside of religious organizations that are doing that, so it's a place we can get that. 00:55:12:14 - 00:55:31:12 Tim The next one is we we talked a lot about, different kinds of support. And of course, we want to involve our family and our loved ones and any major changes that we're making. But it's important to remember that family and close loved ones cannot provide you everything you need. And generally speaking, what I like to say that we require is we need community. 00:55:31:13 - 00:55:57:21 Tim We need our family. Whether that's chosen family or birth family. And we generally need some kind of medical engagement, whether that's therapy, medications, etc.. And so if you're making a major change in your life, particularly around recovery, make sure that you get all three, you know, whether it's 12 step or some other peer organization, whether it's therapy or coaching or medication, and hopefully you're getting as many of those as you can to make this really hard change to your life. 00:55:57:23 - 00:56:12:06 Tim The last thing we want to kind of clarify a little bit is that family can't do everything for you, right? We always want to involve our close family and close friends in our changes that we're making. When they're really monumental. However, they're not going to be able to help with everything you need to spread out the support a little bit. 00:56:12:06 - 00:56:33:09 Tim That's why these communities are really fantastic, whether it's 12 step or something else, and why things like therapy and medication are also really helpful when making those major changes. And there's really good data behind the more support and avenues of support you have, the more likely you are to maintain a change that you're trying to go for. So those are kind of the three main fact check points that I wanted to just clarify and get in there a little bit if this helps you. 00:56:33:09 - 00:56:50:05 Tim If this helped you understand 12 step, if this helped you explore it for a journey for you, or just helped you understand a loved one's journey through it, please share it around. Find somebody else that needs this. We really want to get the word out. Also, remember that this was an hour long conversation with an expert. It's not going to give you everything you need on the topic. 00:56:50:08 - 00:57:06:12 Tim If you're going to make a major change like this, please remember this does not replace therapy. Your story is unique and so is the needs for your care. Make sure that you're getting the right care and right resources for you. I'll see you next week. When we talk to an expert around the differences between blue collar and white collar, and what they can learn from each other, I'm really excited to share it with you. 00:57:06:12 - 00:57:07:06 Tim I can't wait to see you there!