[00:00:00] So I grew up around trades guys. What I know is different from like a white collar gig is you get to take something from start to finish. Trades teach you a lot of critical thinking. You're not just [00:00:10] cogs in the machine type of thing. You do a lot more problem solving if I'm stressing and not making progress. That's anxiety. I'm stressing and making progress. [00:00:20] That's just banging at work, being stressed, right? That that comes with doing more stress is why we get to bed in the morning. Stress is why we get to work on time. Stress is why we do that presentation. Well, you need [00:00:30] stress. You need some motivation. What does it mean to be a provider today? And does having a blue or white collar impact that? What can blue and white collar workers learn from each other to make better careers and better [00:00:40] lives? If you're curious about the answer to either of those questions, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winkie. This is American Masculinity, and our 13th episode we're bringing on Jake still. Jake did a fantastic job of [00:00:50] building out a business from near nothing. By combining his white collar and blue scholar skillset, he created a multi-million dollar business that's also of great service to his community and takes good [00:01:00] care of his employees. I'm really excited to have him on so he can share some of those insights with us. We talk about the differences between blue collar and white collar workers, what they do well, what they could learn from each other, and we [00:01:10] also have a pretty good conversation on what it would look like to try to enter into the blue collar world with the insecurity in the white collar job space right now. There are a lot of younger guys that are exploring blue [00:01:20] collar work over white collar work, so I thought it would be a really good idea to bring somebody on that bridges that gap for us. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Keep an ear out for the skills that you might wanna pick [00:01:30] up this year so we can talk about it at the end. Let's get started.[00:01:40] Aj, thanks so much for coming on and talking to folks. Hey, appreciate having me. Yeah, man, anytime. So, can you tell folks a little bit about your background and, and kinda what makes you the [00:01:50] guy to talk to about blue collar work and leadership in that area? Yeah, so I mean, growing up, um, I played sports and I always just did like manual [00:02:00] labor type of jobs every summer. Um, whether it was starting or not, like cutting lawns. But then, uh, I was a plumber one summer. Uh, actually it was an umpire one summer as well. Uh, I [00:02:10] worked on a farm one summer, like a therapeutic horseback riding farm. So I just always did that type of work. Um, I liked it made my days go by fast. I like being physical, me exercise. What [00:02:20] ended up gonna college for marketing and while there I ended up working for two companies in the trade that I'm in now, which is junk removal and dumpster rentals. And yeah, I went in to [00:02:30] do marketing and sales after that and got a nice taste of, you know, a little bit more. Corporate sales is still different than sitting at a desk job all day. But it still was, you know, [00:02:40] traditional white collar type of work. And yeah, I decided, I like, I really liked being a white collar mindset in the blue collar world. From all my experience, it really helped stand out. And I went from [00:02:50] selling, you know, I was selling a hundred thousand lasers, plastic surgeons now selling B2C, back to consumers and contractors and real estate agents, everything else now. So, best decision I [00:03:00] ever made. And we've been doing this for about eight years now. And so that kinda lived experience on looking at both worlds, navigating that and then helping guys integrate into a blue [00:03:10] collar world has really given you the experience that you needed for this. Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm, I'm big thinking of like, all your experiences have, have reason. You just gotta find, you know, the lessons learned in them. Well, [00:03:20] so as a guy who's kind of done both things right, and we're seeing white car jobs get really impacted, I feel like it's gonna be like the seventies. And the automotive [00:03:30] industry as it is to programmers now with AI kind of coming in, what have you seen as the pros and cons of both? It's a tough one too, right? 'cause today's market is still [00:03:40] changing with ai, so we'll see where it goes. But really, I think trades teach you a lot of critical thinking actually. Um, when you're not just doing, even just [00:03:50] manual labor, even there's some critical thing in there, but like, you really do have to, you're not just cogs in the machine type of thing. You do a lot more problem solving, um, than you would think. So, especially with like our guys [00:04:00] on the trucks, we always tell 'em they're, they're running their own small business because they have, you're cleaning out a house, for example, over there. You do all the logistics, disassembling things. We teach a [00:04:10] tunnel and tools, how to navigate safety, customer service, they do the sales, they do everything. So like. Just 'cause you're a trade, you're not just a technician, you are doing all facets [00:04:20] of a business. Right. Whereas I think really with more white collar, typical type work, you're doing a lot more with computers than anything else. Um, which I do think I'm fearful with AI [00:04:30] and the way it's training. It won't replace everything, but it will replace a lot of things. Um, and there'll, there'll be a trickle down from there as well, um, into other fields. And it probably will hit the labor field. [00:04:40] Like I think, you know, right now there's, there's a need for trades. Um, and I'm definitely thinking that that's gonna be coming back around where, you know, it's gonna start filling up a lot, you know, and this is [00:04:50] 10, 15 years down the road especially. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think it's a really good opportunity to get in now with these businesses. 'cause let's say even AI robots happen that's gonna be 20, 30 [00:05:00] years down the road, so, well, and that's a, that's a whole nother problem we're already seeing right now and offshoring jobs as well. That was already one big issue. Um, and now again, you know, [00:05:10] we're, we're part of that issue. We have over the sea overseas phone reps, but, uh, yeah, it's, I think it's a really, really, um, good practical life skill to have in the trades. [00:05:20] Yeah, I think that the big thing I always think of is, so I grew up around trades guys. My father hung d drapes, all of his buddies were in the various industries, [00:05:30] and there's a lot of overlap between the guys that go into the trades and guys that go into the military. It's more of those kinetic guys and in both [00:05:40] areas I. What I know is different from like a white collar gig and I've had a bunch of those too, is you get to take something from start to finish where you, in the white collar world, that's not typical. Yeah. [00:05:50] Right. You're really, you know, you're really good at this thing, which that quick expertise feels good. Mm-hmm. From the white collar end. Right. Like I remember feeling really good about like, I'm the guy for this, [00:06:00] but just taking something from beginning to end really gives a lot more satisfaction. 'cause it's not easier to explain. Yeah. It was interesting when I got started the data [00:06:10] on like happiness with your job. Mm-hmm. Construc construction workers were some of the happiest people in the country. And the thing that I immediately thought of is [00:06:20] like my dad could brag about where he hung drapes, right. Where he grew up in DC so my dad would like, yeah man, I hung the drapes in the Kennedy Center. Mm-hmm. That's, that was a big deal. Right. Like, especially like a 5-year-old can understand that dad put [00:06:30] those up. Mm-hmm. Right. And I always thought that that's what carried that. But now we're seeing some of the highest addiction rates in construction workers in the country. [00:06:40] Like they're really struggling. Yeah, I would, I would easily agree with that. So how, like if somebody was gonna make that jump, how do they suss out kind of like the, [00:06:50] this is healthy trades, this is somebody not valuing their people. Trades. Trades, yeah. 'cause trades are tough because like how the workforce, like the, the work days go [00:07:00] 10, 12, 14 hour shifts are very common. It's hard to like not do it as an employee and everything else. So for example, we do four day work weeks before because of that. Well, guys want more hours. They take, [00:07:10] pick up the fifth shifts and they get the ot, which is nice, right? But then you, you really have the struggle of like routine and work-life balance. And I'm a big fan of routine is the, one [00:07:20] of the things that makes me happy, right? So if you do not, if you're working a 14 hour shift, one day, 12 another, and they're late shift, so it's hard to get anything else in that day going to bed, come right back in. [00:07:30] It's really hard to get into routine. Um, and have, you know, again, whatever your priorities and let get them done. So I think you're really looking for someone that works with your [00:07:40] schedule on that. If you're working, like, if you're working more than 50 hours, right? If you're building something, and I mean building syste sy uh, systematically for your mm-hmm. [00:07:50] Career growth than anything else, it's different. But if you're just going through the motions and you have to work 55, 60, 70 hours just to make a living, like that's not a sustainable lifestyle [00:08:00] and you'll, you'll have a life right? You'll drink, which a lot of those guys will drink. Um, after that leads to other stuff. Like I had a friend that works in the pipeline and he was in the middle of Pennsylvania [00:08:10] working on the pipeline, and he's like, you're just all there in trailers and there's nothing to do, so you just drink after it. Yeah. And you're okay with working 14, 16 hours because there's nothing to do and you make great money. [00:08:20] Mm-hmm. But it's a slippery type of slope, and then you're surrounding yourself with all those type of people that are all doing the same habits. Right. It, it can de happen. So I, I would say somewhere that values having [00:08:30] some, some sort of. Routine and gets your schedule as routine as possible. It's never gonna be that perfectly in a trade. But, um, if you can, if you can have some sort of routine [00:08:40] and have consistent hours for people that, like say you do work, if you work late for us, we offer you to come in late the next day if you have a later day. Right. Or we move shifts around. Um, and it's not perfect, but I, I'm just a [00:08:50] big fan of routine. Well, I think some of that, that works on both ends, right? Like the guys, Denver's a big startup town. Mm-hmm. So I, I work a lot with tech guys doing startup companies [00:09:00] and the biggest thing that I push all those guys for is exactly what you're talking about. Like, look, there's gonna be pushes any job that doesn't have a 50 or 60 hour week, at least a few times a [00:09:10] year, you're probably not doing anything all that important. Correct? Yeah. Or like every job's got a push and there's a difference between a job having a push and that just being the job. [00:09:20] Right. And kind of like be able to suss that out a little bit. And I think that the, what I always look for for my guys that I'm doing career counseling with on the, on the white collar side is look around at [00:09:30] who they're hiring and talk to those guys. Like if you can start a conversation with somebody that already works there before you jump in. Yeah. We do trial days, so we always call a two way interview. So it's a way for [00:09:40] our employees to get involved in the interview process. Um, but it's also a way for they, for them to interview us. Like see what an actual day is like before you commit. For sure. Because I think people have some cost [00:09:50] bias, right. And soon as you take a job and it's like hmm. Kind of stuck in it, right? You don't wanna quit. The longer you're there gets to quit. And not every job's right. For everybody. Right? That's just, it sounds [00:10:00] so obvious, but now people just take the jobs. We hired a lot through Indeed and um, I got connected with this other company and it was 60% of people on Indeed. Accept the [00:10:10] first job given to them, like immediately, like that day. Right. So it's just like people aren't thinking about their careers, they're just taking the job. I think some of that goes into the provider problem, [00:10:20] where our jobs, they're connected to who we are, right? As guys, the first question gives, what do you do? But it's also connected to like, how we feel good about ourself and what people still [00:10:30] put on it. Like, I've gotta make money, I've gotta be able to bring home this. And so I see a lot of guys in that fear space when they're job hunting where like, yeah, man, the first one, I can't not have a job. [00:10:40] Yeah. I can not have a good job. And some of 'em, it's true. Like some of 'em, they literally, they have no runway. Mm-hmm. Right? They, they got rent, it's coming. But that doesn't mean you gotta stay there. Right. If it's a bad fit, [00:10:50] but, you know, put in your work, show up with integrity, do the job, but it's okay to keep looking. Yeah. If you, it's the status, right? People that leave their job every two years not getting fired, but they [00:11:00] choose to leave, they make the most money left. Right. On average. Yeah. Because a, a company is never gonna pay as much to keep you as they do. To get you Yeah, exactly. Within that kind of [00:11:10] provider context, you know, compared to what you were taught growing up, what's changed around how you're seeing guys handle that role and take on that For, for our employees [00:11:20] specifically. Right? Like we have a lot of younger guys that are trying to figure it out. As I look to the older guy and we have a lot of younger guys that have kids, right? Unfortunately, a lot of them, right? I don't [00:11:30] think they, they know how to be the provider, right? And what that really means. Mm-hmm. And I mean that by as like a maturity standpoint of like understanding [00:11:40] what the job is you're actually doing and that you're not just here to lift stuff, put stuff down, do the work, right? Like what, what is your company building towards? What's the purpose of it? Right? [00:11:50] What, what, you know, what are you actually trying to get done at the job? So for us, right, we try to teach a lot more. I said before, like we run each, each truck route runs [00:12:00] like its own small business and try to understand that like, we're not a junk removal company because. You can hire someone else to put something, pick stuff up, put it down. Like [00:12:10] we spend a ton of money in marketing, a ton of money in logistics, uh, software technology. Um, and we're building systems to, we go, we do stand day service. We did like six jobs a day within like the hour [00:12:20] that they booked. And we have an hour radius to all the service. Like a lot goes in to make that happen, to help clients and their experiences and who we hire and, and people that trust us inside their homes. So, right, like [00:12:30] you're building an actual service that provides value, like you're actually doing something that, that matters and needs to have to get done. And then, you know, are you continuously getting better at [00:12:40] that? And going back to the provider question, right, is you need to be, I think the type of person that, that is constantly [00:12:50] developing, right? Uh, to better themselves, to be a better provider, a better person, a better father for your, your kids in that sense. Mm-hmm. And I say that because we have one kid that we, [00:13:00] we, the young guy, even like 28, not really kids anymore, but we let go and came back and. And once he got kind of put in that situation [00:13:10] regularly, so he did some dumb things. We brought him back for 90 days and he's been absolutely amazing and it's just seen a different maturity and how he looks at himself, you know, and then [00:13:20] text that he sent me and everything else that, um, you know, he just knows he has to be a different person now to be that provider. Right. For that. And I think, I think that's like the biggest thing I would like [00:13:30] to help my guys more and understand with like, like if, if you just go through the motions Yeah. You're not gonna get, get really anywhere. Right. You have to develop that. And, um, uh, I actually, it's the one [00:13:40] small story with me. Uh, I like, I like using streams in therapy actually that's on it. But one time taking them. And I really just thought [00:13:50] about like my role in anything like the. For, for my family, right? Like mm-hmm. I don't have kids yet, but that's where my mindset was. Like, it's just [00:14:00] so important to have that role. Um, and it meant so much to me in that moment, so. Mm-hmm. Um, I think it's really, really important to have that type of purpose, which is hard to find. [00:14:10] Well, I like how you kind of balanced out both ends of kind of what providing means. Right. And some of it, that word is gonna change con when context [00:14:20] changes, right. So if you're not providing value at where you're working, you're not displaying excellence in anything. Like, if you can't get better at a job you're doing, it's probably not [00:14:30] somewhere you should stay. Like, we need to, like, just for our own psyches. Yeah. We need to feel good at what we do. Correct. Like, we need to feel competent. And so if it's just a job [00:14:40] where there's no competency to it, probably find something else. Mm-hmm. But if there is a competency to it, which almost every job has, I don't care if you're making fries at McDonald's, there's a competency thing. There's a, there's a learning track [00:14:50] that you can take, make sure that you, when you're done with the day. That you feel good about what you put out. Like regardless of what the boss is doing, regardless of the toxic culture or whatever, [00:15:00] did I do my part well? Yeah. Just for yourself. Have you ever seen the founder? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we played it for all of our employees, um, because our was a business model, Fred [00:15:10] Turner, because you brought, I don't care if you go fries at McDonald's. Fred Turner was a fry chef at, at McDonald's and he eventually became the CEO. So it's pride in your [00:15:20] work for who you are as a person, even if you're in the work. Worst workplace, get outta the workplace, but don't let it ever affect your, the way, you know, you look at your job and get yourself done. [00:15:30] Yeah. And I, I think that's the trick with it, right? If you're doing that and there isn't anywhere for you to go get a different job. Yeah. Right. Like learn how to be good at that, but then look for the next step. 'cause if that [00:15:40] company's not providing it for you, there's no harm, no foul, but it's time to go. Yeah. And I think that goes into the other end of it where when we're talking about provider in a family sense, if you're choosing to kind of take on that [00:15:50] traditional role of I'm the one bringing in the money so that our family's okay. Money matters. You, you do have to look for progression in cash. I think where I kind of see the [00:16:00] problem go is younger guys not prioritizing that enough and older guys overp prioritizing the money where they get in that habit of like, I'm always looking for the [00:16:10] next big check. Instead of like, wait, I've got enough right now. Maybe I can ease off a gas so I can be around my kids more. Right. And that's where, for me, I don't have my [00:16:20] kids yet, so I'm balancing that right now because I can't, you know, hours. My business partner has much kids and he just came on full time and yeah, we're, we're seeing that balance and I, yeah, [00:16:30] I get it. I can't, you ask, and what I see with business runners when once they get kids, their policies get a lot softer for their employees for some reason. Yeah. Right. Because they're like, oh no, no, [00:16:40] this is hard. Well, and that's where, yeah, I try, I use that when I talk to my partner about stuff, I'm like, you gotta relate to the, you know, our guys have this and like we.[00:16:50] We, we we're kind of whatever we do, right? We're always being watched, you know, we're just like parents, right? And they look at you and say, what you do? What, you know, what key, what do you tolerate? Right? What can you get away with? What do you [00:17:00] praise? So, um, yeah, I I, I agree with that sentiment. Well, and that's a, that's another thing I work with a lot of my entrepreneurial guys with. Like, if it's your business, [00:17:10] there is a passion about that project to you, or you wouldn't have picked that business. Right? And no one's gonna work as hard for your passion as you will. [00:17:20] And so if you're like leaving at four every day, why would your people stay till five? Yeah. And I think that's just, people need to take that on a little bit. Yeah. I think it goes much better [00:17:30] 'cause there's nothing wrong with leaving at four if that's the company culture and everybody's doing good work and that's, y'all can make money doing that. Great. Like as a therapist, that's my favorite thing to see. Right. More time with things that matter to you. But [00:17:40] that's not how most businesses start. Yeah. Well and that's ironic too. 'cause right now that's what we leave, like our managers actually leave at four, but that's your thing worth five work, five day worksheets and then they're on [00:17:50] call after four for any employees there still out because we work, you know, different shifts but the managers still work more hours but they still perception of reality. Right. So you see, well wait, why is he doing four? 'cause he's working [00:18:00] five days plus he's on call and you're working four days. So yeah. But, uh, in the beginning, especially for us, I mean I, I worked all day, every day for the first, you know, two [00:18:10] years, you know, nonstop. And I ruined my body in, in the process and yeah, it took a while to get back healthy. Well that kind of goes back to a little bit of what we were talking about before we started [00:18:20] recording around. You know, you can only do one or two things well in your life and you're gonna have more things than one or two that you value. And so sometimes, you know, if it's that time [00:18:30] where you don't have your person yet, you don't have kids, you don't have other obligations and you want to go pound out 60 hour weeks for a little while. Yeah. Yeah. Not like it's, that's a big push. It can't be [00:18:40] forever. Yeah. It's not the worst idea. Yeah. We have a call and you see me a little chunky. You're like, oh, his business is doing well. Oh man, that's fun. I guess this kind of moves into, uh, something [00:18:50] that I'm really excited to hear your take on this. Mm-hmm. So you've, now you've done both ends of the spectrum. You've employed guys, I imagine you've employed some guys that have come outta white collar, work into [00:19:00] blue collar work and mentored some blue collar guys into white collar work over the years. Yeah. What's something that guys with college degrees know better than guys without [00:19:10] it? And what's something that guys that just jump right into work and have been like in the trades the whole time know better than the college guys? So we, at the end of our [00:19:20] day, we do financial locks. So we run gross profit. Um, we teach guys, you know, on. On why the margins matter. We go over like things like [00:19:30] revenue per hour, productivity, you know, your disposal, your fuel, everything. Um, and they do the math and everything else. So one, doing the actual math is a [00:19:40] lot easier for the white collar college guys, right? And everything else. But why we do the spreadsheet, why we do the finance financials. That is the [00:19:50] biggest difference I see between the white collar and blue collar set. Like the white collar mindset will, they're, they're critical thinking on that. It's like an understanding. [00:20:00] Okay, yeah, I relate to this. 'cause it's, it's our KPIs, right? For why we do the day-to-day business, right? It tells us did we do a good job or not? Right? Where the blue collar guys, like, [00:20:10] why do we have to do paperwork, right? Why do we have to write it up? Write it down. And it's not about the paperwork, it's, it's, it's for you to show your work and then for you to analyze and go, Ooh, wait, I had a bad day today. What went [00:20:20] right? What went wrong? Not just go through the motions, right? So I see that as a big benefit on the white collar guys, right. Of, you know, them looking a little [00:20:30] deeper at to, okay, why are we actually doing this? Understanding the bigger scope of what they're actually doing. Um, whereas it's like systems integration. Yeah. And the blue collar guys would put their heads down and get to work, [00:20:40] right? Um, yeah. But the blue collar guys as well, as far as like, and, and, and I'm talking about the, and I'm looking at like all quality employees, right? Because [00:20:50] we have mm-hmm. Let's, let's use that as a bar for both quality. Yeah. White collar, blue collar. But the blue collar guys, there's certain things in their work ethic, right? That, [00:21:00] again, that head down mentality, because you have that head down mentality, it's like, I'm just gonna figure it out regardless. Right? Like, I wanna get through this problem. Right. Whatever it is. [00:21:10] Um, especially working in the field, in the hands of small things will have like, okay, you know, um. The fridge won't fit, fit the door. Okay. Mm-hmm. Take the measure and tape out. We see if it [00:21:20] fits. Maybe I have to, you know, um, take the door off, right? Or take the fridge, take the railing off the stairs or whatever. But they'll find a way to get the job done. And straw is like, that is the job, right? It has [00:21:30] to get done. Mm-hmm. Where the white collar eyes might be like, you know, this is okay, get it out. Sorry. Yeah. This is not in the scope right. Type of word. Now, that [00:21:40] is the at baseline, right? Because once you train them and coach 'em and everything else, it doesn't matter. But I'm saying at that baseline, that mentality, um, and how they look at problem [00:21:50] solving, um, is definitely different. Well, and I think there's, that's what I'm trying to, to get to with that question is if you get those guys around each other mm-hmm. With respect, everybody [00:22:00] learns what they need to. Correct. Like, I remember, uh, for my sergeant's course that I went through, I was an intelligence guy, right? Office dude had a degree and showed up, and I was working with a bunch of maintainers, right? [00:22:10] 70% of the Air Force at the time was twisting wrenches on planes. And that meant that these guys hadn't done school. Like they barely, like a lot of 'em like just got through high school to get into the Air force. Yeah. [00:22:20] And I learned so much about like, what it looks like to take a job to completion from them, because I was getting kind of jaded about the intel work. Mm-hmm. But I was [00:22:30] also the guy that could like get them out over a beer and help 'em pass the test that they were struggling with. Uh, people need to be around different people more. Yeah. And that it's that schoolwork ethic. Right. And I'm [00:22:40] a big believer in everyone's the same intelligence for the most part. Like, you have a few people on the far end of the spectrum that are super smart and that are actually dumb, but most people [00:22:50] are 95% or wherever the actual percentage is, is right around that middle. Right. Yeah. It's a bell curve. Yeah. We're all, we're all pretty close bell curve. Right. So really what that means is that it's what [00:23:00] you are passionate about. What you're interested in is what you actually learn and retain. So, like you asked me about cars, we have a ton of trucks, like at our company and I just, it [00:23:10] doesn't stick to me. I, you used to get made fun of in high school 'cause I couldn't name like three different car brands. And I'd be smarter, like books smart and other stuff. But like, I just, I don't have an interest. I never have, I never will. May, [00:23:20] maybe I'll, I dunno, I just don't, so like, it doesn't stick with me. And like, I have a friend who, we bust his boss because he didn't get in West Virginia and that's like one of the highest acceptance rates, you know, in, [00:23:30] um, in the country. And, and he owns his own business that was super successful. He, he's one of the smartest like life skill, everything. Like, he just has always had it down so well, [00:23:40] um mm-hmm. And it's what you're, what you care to learn. So if you don't think school has value, you're not gonna pay attention in school. Like, it's just, that's, that's what I believe. Firmly on that [00:23:50] again, the bell curves best way of putting it. Well, I think the, I really like your analogy around the, the paperwork and then the, just like getting your head down to get a problem solved and fixed. Mm. Is I [00:24:00] think if you wanna get really good at whatever you're doing, mm. You've gotta be able to do both, right? You've gotta be able to like, take on and get frustrated and cuss at a project for a while. [00:24:10] But then if you don't have the ability to sit down in the quiet and assess like, what did the work go to? How did it go to do, right? You're gonna cap out on how good you can get if you don't have both of those things.[00:24:20] Well, and that's what I think that that third kind of category is like that entrepreneurial category, right? Mm-hmm. Where you're getting a mix of that, because I think you really need a mix of that, [00:24:30] um, in order to survive, like entrepreneurism, like I think that word gets thrown around all the time, but, um mm-hmm. But you really do, like, it is a grind [00:24:40] and you constantly, you know, we, we just had a record breaking week last week and I still feel like we're just not doing enough. Right? Yeah. We're not going anywhere, so, yeah. It's tough. Well, [00:24:50] so I think, I think that's the, that's why so few people actually are entrepreneurial. I think we push too many people into it. Mm-hmm. I think most people [00:25:00] just want to do what they do and have the details around them managed. Yeah. Because that's how we operate, right? Like you talked about how we were 2000 years ago, right? We're supposed to [00:25:10] be operating in groups of 20 people where like, if I make the shoes, I'm the guy that makes the shoes and you're the guy that makes the vest. And that's how we get around. It's okay. And then yeah, there's like one in 10 of us who are like, [00:25:20] no, I'm the guy that leads this. And like, I'll help everybody organize and I'll push us to get to this thing and build this thing better. Right? But most of us just wanna do something. Well, yeah. [00:25:30] And for an entrepreneur, you it, there's so many things you need to do. Well that, that doesn't work. Yeah. And you gotta, again, just be really, really obsessed, I think, [00:25:40] uh, to grind through it. Because that's like the only way, like if I didn't have almost like, like productivity, anxiety about making this work and now having, you know, employees [00:25:50] that I'm responsible for, uh. Yeah, I, I don't know if I would be able to do it all the time. Well, I think that's worth talking about. I'm glad you brought it up. Like, one of my big pet [00:26:00] peeves as a clinician is I really dislike how we've convinced everyone that stress is anxiety. Like stress is healthy. Mm. Stress is why we get outta bed in the morning. Stress is why we get to [00:26:10] work on time. Stress is why we do that presentation. Well, why we do that project? Well, you need stress. You need some motivation. So for you, when you talk about that, like that blind culture really pushes [00:26:20] stress into anxiety a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. How do you balance that? Like how do you know I'm, I'm lined up with where I need to be. I'm really motivated. I'm really pushing, but I'm okay [00:26:30] versus I'm, I'm spinning and I'm working too much and I'm getting sloppy. So we talk about anxiety first, right? So I, I, I definitely know the difference between my anxiety and stress, [00:26:40] um, and what, when they're often related. But I do have like, like I was a kid that I. There's always, I feel like the entrepreneurs started like, oh, I didn't do well in school. And then I came up. No, I was average. I worked [00:26:50] really, really hard and I was average always, and I always put the most effort in. 'cause I just felt like I had to take that extra course to get into college or do this or whatever. And for me, I have like, I do have like a lot of [00:27:00] anxiety is just never doing enough, right? And running out time, everything else. But the difference to know when I, when about stress is if I'm stressing and not [00:27:10] making progress, that's anxiety. If I'm stressing and making progress, that's just banging at work, being stressed, right? That that comes with doing more. And a lot of our guys, we [00:27:20] see it where at like the office, right? If we're really, really at our most stressful point, it's usually when we're not making progress at the same time. Like the numbers aren't good, we're [00:27:30] working hard, we don't feel like we're getting anywhere, we feel stuck, right? Mm-hmm. Versus like, we feel like we're making progress. It's like really, really tight knit bonding and community. [00:27:40] When you're stressed together as like. As a team and working towards the same goal and accomplishing it. Like, for me, that's like forever bonding. Like there's, that's the difference between the two. [00:27:50] Um, because I mean the, like, uh, I, I prefer or compare a lot of things to fitness, right? Like the more stress you have in your body, the stronger your muscles grow. So I think it's the same thing, you know, if you [00:28:00] wanna grow, like you need discomfort. Yeah. Discomfort, not, uh, not pulling a muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right. Yeah. But there's still a, uh, a max, you know, you can, you can push [00:28:10] it. Yeah. But, um, you know, I, I just think it, yeah. It matters what you're working towards and, and who you're doing it with. Then do you feel you're making progress? Yeah, I like the, I like the progress analogy because I, I [00:28:20] think that a decent way to describe anxiety is when fear and stress have a dysfunctional child. Mm. And you know the difference between fear and anxiety, [00:28:30] if, if I'm afraid of something and I come up with a plan that makes it not hit as hard or to avoid it, and that plan makes me feel better, mm-hmm. That's [00:28:40] fear. 'cause I've addressed my fear. Mm-hmm. Right. I've got, I've got progress. If I do that and I just go to the next thing, or no matter what kind of plan I come up with, this fear isn't going away.[00:28:50] We're now in anxious territory. Mm-hmm. And I think that lends up really well with the stress I did. You're stressed when you feel like you're getting traction. Like, there is a problem, I got stuff to do, let's go. [00:29:00] And I'm working on it. And it might not be moving fast all the time, but I feel it moving. Mm. I feel like I'm chipping away at this problem versus I'm just grinding into a wall that isn't moving. Yeah. [00:29:10] And I, most of my thing, uh, I, I get the second recurring pat pattern when that happens is where I feel like I'm not working hard enough [00:29:20] at that point. So I'll work harder, I'll do all-nighters. Right. Instead of, you know, eliminating stuff, working smarter, and then I'll get burned out right from that. And it true, like we're [00:29:30] doing again with our company right now, it's taking a step back. Right. And rebuilding. Right. That whole, all the cliches in life, truly. Mm-hmm. One step backwards, take two steps forward. Right. [00:29:40] Something you have to learn, but you need to be able to catch yourself and be aware of it, because it is really easy to get caught in that kind of rat race, you know, mindset. Um, and you get stuck [00:29:50] and no one nails the balance consistently. No. Right. And then, and I think that's where a lot of younger guys I work with, they're always freaked out about how they're freaked out [00:30:00] instead of just recognizing that everybody's struggling somewhere. Yeah. I think a lot about trying to pick up this podcast, right? This is like, I'm on my 10th episode and so I spent like two [00:30:10] months reading everything, grinding on like video editing, spending three hours on a given day on trying to get something right Until I finally hit that point where like, okay, I'm [00:30:20] exhausted. This is starting to go poorly. I now know enough to know what I need to hire out. I now know enough to know like how to get the right kind of help in. And I don't think you get [00:30:30] there without overdoing it a little bit. The the trick is, is to catch it before you overdo it so much that you're just straight burnt out, that you just have to walk away and put down whatever it is. I think that's the [00:30:40] trick with it. We're, I'm starting a, a second company right now in crypto, so unrelated to blue collar. Right? Um, but the lessons I've learned, especially with one of my business partners who is more [00:30:50] the crypto expert, but hasn't been, hasn't built a company before. I'm like, dude, too much paralysis by analysis. Like, you just, we just gotta make the call, get 'em moving. We'll learn faster by what doesn't [00:31:00] work. Like the, the first step's the hardest, right? Like that is always what it comes down to. 'cause you just learn and you're afraid to put yourself out there. You're afraid to be cringey. You're afraid of what people will say and judge [00:31:10] and failure, right? Because it is normal. Your body, like mind, you don't want fail, right? Because back in the day I go to that hard wiring like, you failed, you died. Right? Like, so, uh, [00:31:20] it's a big difference. But, um, yeah, that's where the first rule, I think problems really come into play now, so. Well, I think that's, that's Bezos's rule that he came up with that, that when I heard it, [00:31:30] it's one of those things where you hear it, it really sticks well. Yeah. Like say what you want about Bezos. He's got a lot of problems, but this was choice. Mm-hmm. And the idea of a one-way door and a two-way door, [00:31:40] right? If it's a one-way, like if we do this and we step through, you need to know 95% of what's on the other side of that choice. But if it's a two-way door, we can go try something. You need [00:31:50] 30%. You're gonna learn so much more just trying it on the other side of the door than you will like grinding on the research. And then I heard another re framing it. Same thing basis [00:32:00] quota. It's like 95 decisions in the world are reversible, so make 'em quickly. And the other five, yeah, take your time on that. But most make it, you can change your mind later. [00:32:10] It was like how we have to quantify to make it real, right? Yeah. But yeah. And then like, I'm big fan of like the Pareto principle, which is 80 20, but it really isn't, it's just majority results come from [00:32:20] Yeah. A a few things. Um, and you never know which they are until you've tried 'em all. Yeah. Well, I think for kind of the career stuff, it's important. You know, we've got a lot of [00:32:30] guys that are trying to figure out what career to go into and how to explore it. If you were talking to a guy looking to start it in the trades somewhere and build a life [00:32:40] there, what, what are kind of three pieces of advice you would give 'em outta the gate? So I think it kind of goes back to what we just talked about is go work at a bunch of companies [00:32:50] and see what you like. Right. Early on, younger stuff. Like, like, like, so don't get locked in right away. No. Like, go try some different job sites. Look around at what people are doing. Yeah. See what works out there. [00:33:00] Yeah. Like first, because again, it goes into, you don't know what you don't know yet. You don't know what you don't. Mm-hmm. Like you might think, oh, I wanna be an electrician. Why? What do you know about the day, day, day of an electrician that makes you wanna be an electrician? [00:33:10] Right. What do you know about a plumber? Right. So it's like, do do some research, ask around, ask for references. Right. And that ask your shadow for free. Because you can do that. [00:33:20] People be like, if someone, if someone came off the street, like, hey, especially me. And like, I think there's certain entrepreneurial people that, like, I'm a sucker for that. Like if you came off [00:33:30] the street and like, Hey, I don't know what I wanna do with my career and I don't know what trade I'm gonna do. Would I be able to shadow you guys for a day or work for you day and like, whatever. And I'm like, we need a body. I would [00:33:40] love to be able to help give someone direction. Well, I think that's, that's something we forget with all the modern ways of getting jobs is, and it might have changed by now, but [00:33:50] back when I was doing my training, 90% of jobs still came through social connection. You know, you can be on all the sites you want, but if you know somebody in the company that's willing to vouch for you, it's gonna go better. Mm-hmm. [00:34:00] And so getting out there and me and doing some shadowing, being audacious enough to ask around the, the big thing I recommend for guys doing any career is if they're looking to doing a, like a real big [00:34:10] switch mm-hmm. Is get on LinkedIn, get wherever people that do that job are. Mm-hmm. And then get on the phone and talk to people who do it until you've talked to three people who love their [00:34:20] job and three people who hate you, Joe. Mm-hmm. Because none of the people that are in the middle are gonna talk to you. They don't care enough to have a conversation about it. Yeah. But you need to hear both ends, right? Yeah. And that's [00:34:30] an, I think that's the both end thing is really important to, to not have bias, right? Like you said. Mm-hmm. That, because there are always people on both ends and it's, it's a natural [00:34:40] churn of businesses. Right. Like it's never gonna be perfect. And again, you should be people on the far end of like, you don't like it as well, because yes, that means, you know, you're not in the right place sometimes. Right. [00:34:50] And whether that's a toxic environment or just not the career for you. So that first point is get out and look at things, try different things. Two [00:35:00] is don't be afraid to ask to see behind the curtain. Mm-hmm. That ud um, Dwayne France is a colleague of mine and he talks a lot about the, uh, the audacious of hope. You know, let them tell, you know, is always kind of his [00:35:10] deal. Yeah. What's a third thing they might be able to do? I think the third thing is honestly, probably YouTube. Just like YouTube's such an incredible resource [00:35:20] and Yeah, and there's so much content on there now, and just like they, A life of electrician, I guarantee a ton of videos will come up. Right. Yeah. And I, I think that's a rare way of [00:35:30] doing it, obviously. Again, they're gonna be some bias there, but I'm sure a lot of videos will be like, this is real life. Like this is the hard work we go through and this, and then, you know, but yeah, and then like YouTube goes, it's self-education books as [00:35:40] well, like YouTube and books. Audible, whatever you like. Yeah. Do a little research. Yeah. I like that you mentioned Audible. One of the things that comes up a lot is, uh, the distinction [00:35:50] between like audio books and books. Books, doesn't matter how you get the knowledge, you still read the book. Don't let anybody shame you if you're a guy that needs to listen to it. Grad school kind of broke me. Most of the books I take in these days, I'm listening to, [00:36:00] I'm not reading anymore and I, I got distinguished graduate of my program. It's not that I can't, yeah. I get really mad at my, my guys, um, selfishly. 'cause like if I was, like, if I was [00:36:10] on the, if I, when I was in college and I did this job and I knew how to listen to audible books, I would've learned so much because that's all I would've did while, while I'm doing physical. Yeah. You just had it on the road. I [00:36:20] just, yeah. Put 'em in and you learn. I'm like, you guys have so much time to learn. You can literally get paid to learn. You can just pop in the headphones and then buy the book you like. So, so I think if we were gonna kind of [00:36:30] summarize all three, it boils down to curiosity. Don't be that guy off of indeed. That takes the first job. Mm-hmm. And just stays at that job. Look around. You're gonna find [00:36:40] happiness by knowing what's out there. Even if the first job was the one. 'cause then, you know, you're not, you're not worried about it, you know what's there. Yeah. And I think there's two things that kind of cause that One is like [00:36:50] fear. Like, oh, I need money and need it now. Right. And the other thing is like, the paralysis by analysis of thing is like, well, I don't know where to start. So yeah, I'm just gonna take the first job and take that decision outta my hands. [00:37:00] Like. Instead do research. Yeah. What's that balance of, of action and knowledge. Right? Like Mark Manson says that, uh, learning is the smart guy's procrastination. Mm-hmm. Right? [00:37:10] Yeah. That my, my therapist, uh, has given me shit for that, where he's just like, you know, like, you already know everything to do. You're just not doing it. Like, you don't need [00:37:20] more knowledge. So like Yeah. And certain topics, yeah. I do think I need more knowledge, but most where my problems are right now as a company, yeah. I don't need more knowledge. Yeah. If you [00:37:30] don't, if you don't have a step to take after spending a few hours researching something, you've probably, you've either not researched the right thing, but more often than not, you're just, you're afraid of something else. [00:37:40] It's not what you don't know. Well, man, let's, uh, let's, I wanna respect your time and make sure I get you outta here. Time to get to your lady. Yay. Uh, so let's get into you a little bit directly. Mm-hmm. Um, the, the three [00:37:50] questions that I ask everybody that come on right. The first one is, what's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12? That remains true today. I think I used to cry about [00:38:00] everything. Um, like I was very happy given that like when things would go wrong, I'd be embarrassed, I would, would cry like all the time. Like [00:38:10] a, a lot, a lot, a lot. Um, and I was right around 12, 13 when I started really getting out of it, but I learned that lesson. I was like, it's okay. Like to, to kinda [00:38:20] not be okay. Right. In that and which is like kind of the opposite normal now. But what I mean by that is that now is like, I learned that like, that's part of life. Like it's not going to be fair. Right. [00:38:30] Um, and it made me very, I wanna say callous in different ways where, where I'm good at solving like those problems now. Okay. Um, I'm used to it and like, [00:38:40] I feel like I, I actually only cry ever. Like, and doesn't like death in the family, anything. Like it's movies, like during happy scenes and movie or like, whatever. Like that's when I'll, I'll [00:38:50] like, somehow it'll come out of me. Like I have, I'm like, oh, I have, I have emotions again. But other than that, like tough times, man. Like I just, I can't imagine that there would be crying before. I think it's just [00:39:00] because all those experiences, um, before like life isn't fair and it's gonna be hard and you can work your way through it kind of thing. So kind of a truth for [00:39:10] you is men have big emotions, but you have to manage 'em to get it done. Yeah. Like, like, like it's not gonna change anything. Like me crying never made it better. [00:39:20] Right. My dad was very, very tough for me on that. Um, 'cause it was normally during sports heavily over cries as well. Yeah. Um, and it does nothing but feel like I was just feeling [00:39:30] sorry for myself. And again, this feelings still exist, but now I channel it to more of, okay, like, why do I feel that way? What do I need to improve? Right. You know, what, what are the, what are the action steps I need to take because [00:39:40] of that? Yeah, I think, yeah, the ca the caveat I would put on that for folks is, you know, find a place and people where you can cry for a little bit. Yeah, yeah. You know, well, you gotta get it out and like you at those movies, right? [00:39:50] Like, all right, I know, like I can't get it out the other ways, but I can get it out here a little bit. Yeah. You know? No, and, uh, the caveat tell everyone that's not, it's not that it's not okay to feel that way. Right. Because I, I have a lot of [00:40:00] conversations where we're vulnerable and we're open, like my friends, right? We talk about stuff and I just talk about my friends, about, like, he was going through some depression and everything else, and he's, you know, we're 30, we're in thirties now, relationship [00:40:10] stuff, right? So the issue isn't, this is not to be non emotional, right. To say it's not okay. I'm saying I learned that my emotions because I was crying over. Well, I imagine crying like [00:40:20] that as a kid is isolating, right? Because people are pulling away from that kind of volatility. Correct. As opposed to connecting with a kid that's like crying a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I was crying over things that, [00:40:30] like, once I couldn't jump over a fence and my friends were watching, I was with my dad and I was embarrassed. Like, I tried heavily. Like I, I was immobilized. Um. [00:40:40] It's okay to be upset, but just also because so upset doesn't mean it's like validated, right? Like you need to like be able to work through that. And I'm just using that as a couple [00:40:50] examples, but it was often now, I think more than anything else, like I am very in tune with motions, but also talking about them, especially with employees, like I go straight to the [00:41:00] conversation. I'm really good at reading people, especially when the emotions are involved and having those tough conversations early on. Um, I think emotions serve a, a, a, a [00:41:10] really strong purpose. Like we have 'em for a reason, they to direct us and trigger us well, and they're not going anywhere. You might as well use 'em. Right. The the second one mm-hmm. Is tell us about a [00:41:20] time your pursuit of manhood hurt you. I think for this one and still is today kind of thing, it's like, and it's funny because it's, it's like this, I believe in [00:41:30] overcorrection, like to all my, something goes wrong, overcorrect. And I think for right now I'm still going through that where we tell about being that provider, right. And. [00:41:40] Pretty successful business. Yeah. We just bought a, a, you know, nice house in, um, in, in New Jersey and, you know, we're looking, gonna plan a wedding and everything [00:41:50] else. And I have to remind myself of everything that's going right in life right now. Right. And I'm thinking like, well, I have to do more. Right. And I have to know, be able to do, you know, I wanna be [00:42:00] a provider even for my parents. Like my goal is to retire my parents, right. My goal is to, you know, be a provider for my employees, help them career and development and like save everybody. And same thing my, with my [00:42:10] family, right? And I wanna have this certain life for them, but it's not a cushy life. It's a secure life, but at the same time help growing them and everything else, right? And, and putting in the best chances for [00:42:20] success. Um, and we'll see what that happens as they get older. But I think for me, you know, I think that constant pursuit, you know, I'm on this call right now, you said, oh, get with your family right [00:42:30] after that I'm Beyonce, right? Like, yeah. There are times where it's like balancing where, how far, if I gone too far as being this provider trying to save everybody, um. [00:42:40] And, and, you know, who am I neglecting in the meantime or am I losing that time? Right. I think some things that are a gamble, right? To like, hey, mm-hmm I'm only gonna work this hard for two years [00:42:50] and then I'm gonna be able to enjoy the next 40 and two years turns into debt, you know, like Yeah. And then yeah, the two years doesn't pan out. Yeah. There's no guarantee in business, right? Yeah. Like who, who, who are you working so hard for? Is [00:43:00] like, for me, and again, it's a provider thing because it's really isn't, it isn't to, to really impress anyone anymore. I think when you're younger it is. Um, and maybe as you older for certain things, for [00:43:10] me it's not, it's, it's just am I, who am I who I say I am and what kind like provider for my family. Yeah. This is the like, you know, the whole cast and the cradle [00:43:20] song. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After, you know, coming up on a decade of doing clinical work. I can say with some authority [00:43:30] that I've never had a guy whose father wasn't abusive that said, I wish dad worked more. It's, and that provider man, like, we keep, I [00:43:40] see it with clients, I see it with buddies of mine. It's happened to me. And sounds like you're, you're kind of navigating which end of it you're falling on, but you can always get more. Right. You can always push and get more at figuring [00:43:50] out that enough line for now to balance that out is hard. And the amount of guys that let that pursuit of being the provider kind of break the other relationships, [00:44:00] it's pretty consistent. Yeah. When I think it, when I look at my own thing, I, I, I really do believe it's like dispositions, like gambling and stuff as humans and shit. Like, we always, like, [00:44:10] we, we just overestimate how we're gonna be right about something. Right. And that's when, like, like for me, I'm like, oh, this task will only take this long. Right. Or that, and it's, I'm not good at, yeah, I'm [00:44:20] getting better, but for the most part, I, I thought it'd be, I'd be farther ahead right now. And at the same time like. I did look back, like we had a record breaking week last week for the company, like most revenue we've ever did in one [00:44:30] week. And you know, it's like, yeah, when's enough enough? Right. Kind of thing. And the truth is, in, in business, you always have to have growth [00:44:40] actually, for the most part, because you need, you need to be growing for your, your, uh, employees to have a career path, right? So you're gonna get bottleneck if you don't keep [00:44:50] growing the company to some shape or form. So it's a, it's a tough, you know, balancing act to do that. I think that expansive role of what being a provider means as a [00:45:00] business owner always gets tricky, right? Mm-hmm. Like finding the balance of I have a responsibility to take care of my people versus parenting your role for them. Yeah. Yeah. Is [00:45:10] like, it's tricky, tricky. I bring it home and so my fiance's like, I'm not one of your employees. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't talk. No, you don't need to do that here. Stop it. But, [00:45:20] but, so this is the thing that's really interesting. Um, and I would love to get like a psychology like on it more over 50% of our frontline employees don't have a father figure in the home. And it's always [00:45:30] astounding me, you know? And then, uh, you know, how they come through and seeing, you know, the patterns and similarities between them. Um, and I do feel [00:45:40] obligated sometimes to, to fill that void. And it's tough things like, where is it my place to be? But I've also really, really positive feedback that like, I save the text 'cause it means [00:45:50] like a lot to me, um, to do that. So it's again, it's like, how am I going too far? Yes. The, the line. So what men generally need and what boys desperately [00:46:00] need is mentorship. Mm. And a father figure fills a lot of that space, but when they're not there, it only takes two or three guys that step [00:46:10] in and piece pieces, right? Like that coach, that teacher, that boss that takes an interest in you, shows some care and teaches something, right? But that's all it [00:46:20] needs to be for mentorship. Mm-hmm. Right. A father has to love them regardless of what they do. Yeah. A father has to like make sure that [00:46:30] their kids are the priority as much as they can be. As a boss, you've got a whole company to take care of. You've got your family to see two first and [00:46:40] never underestimate the power of what that mentorship's doing. Even when you're dialing it back to like mentorship instead of parental. Yeah. It's hard to tell the difference between, you know, parental and [00:46:50] mentorship and again, everything's gray, right? So it's, mm-hmm. It's, it shouldn't be hard to know when you're in the gray area. I feel like it should be easy to know when you're outside of that area, [00:47:00] you're going too far away. And for one kid, this is early on, less than like year one. We, we went to his, his house and talked to his mom and like helped him with his [00:47:10] finances and all this other crap that was going on. And we had a, like a heart to heart with him and we 100% took that father figure role. Like we went into, we knocked and went into his house. Um. [00:47:20] Too far and that we ended up getting burnt with that employee and didn't work out. But I am, I am entirely unsurprised. Yeah, but you gotta learn all along, man. Like there's always the first one. [00:47:30] Yeah. He was our first employee, so Yeah. There you go. Perfect. Yeah, I mean, it's a hard balance, but it, uh, just by hearing you talk and listening to a few other episodes that you've done, I [00:47:40] think you're probably hitting it better than you think you are, just from the stories you tell. Yeah, I actually, like, I, I, I do think I'm really good at that. The, the issue I have [00:47:50] is one-on-one conversations and, and, and heart to hearts because I'm, I, I, I know how much it means to me, so I'm genuine and I think being genuine makes it effective. And I've done it a lot now, and I, and I [00:48:00] analyze, I read on it, the issue I have is you need systems that make, that the culture in the company and that your manager doing that and managers and, [00:48:10] and their direct reports and everybody's kind of do it 'cause I can't be everywhere. Right. Um, and what I say gets interpreted differently and everything else. Right. So. Um, that's for my next [00:48:20] career progression really. Uh, I think that's in the companies is I need to be able to expand on that, but I think that's, I think that's any, anything that's not a job in a [00:48:30] career has stuff like that where you're mentoring one or two steps down from you. Not like the CEO isn't managing, like, isn't mentoring the fry code. [00:48:40] Yeah. Right. Like that, that can happen rarely. Mm-hmm. But for instance, the, the guy who mentored me in the field, the guy who supervised me, he's now like in his eighties, [00:48:50] he hadn't seen a client in 15 years when he was supervising me because he didn't do it anymore. His whole job was supervision management and education. Yeah. And I think just [00:49:00] feeling those transition points, right. Knowing when it's time to be like, okay, so like I can't be with the frontline guys. Like I want to, how are the people around them filling the void? I'm leaving as I move [00:49:10] up. It's a different type of problem solve. Mm-hmm. Right. So. Uh, and I'm finding that, you know, I have to be a different type of leader, manager person [00:49:20] to be more effective in my communication, uh, and my standards and everything to, to do that. So it's going along, but it's not. Yeah. That's good, man. Well, for the, for the [00:49:30] last one, what's a time where pursuit of your masculinity empowered you? I would say kind of going into like right now is like, it's a [00:49:40] very political thing right now to say guys are the breadwinner, right? And women are not maker because I don't believe that. I believe in like, in [00:49:50] general, every scenario is different. Like I'm very, you know mm-hmm. I believe in choice. And the choice that you're wanting to make Yeah. Is traditional. It's whatever. It's right. Like [00:50:00] it's, it's up to you if you wanna do whatever you wanna do kind of thing. And for me, in this role, I believe actually more and more that [00:50:10] I would love to see where. My fiance and, and everyone else, like she can, any choice she wants right to do mm-hmm. Whatever, pursue. Right. And that's career, that's home, [00:50:20] whatever. And you know, as you have a family, I know that'll change things. So I think for right now, I do feel very empowered in my position to be a provider, like have this conversation provider thing. And I [00:50:30] think for me, uh, I'm very thankful that I'm in a position where I have a lot of, not only through control, but influence over like my career path right now. And, and I know [00:50:40] if I can figure some stuff out that that's a, that's a privilege to have to be in the position I'm now. Yeah. I worked really hard to be where I am now, but I am where I'm now. Right. Um, very privilege. But [00:50:50] yeah, I, I think that's where I feel really good about looking at it and say, okay, I built this so far, little with the team. Yeah, I didn't do it alone, but now I am in a position where I can really [00:51:00] kind of control my own destiny. Um, and I only got there by putting myself out there working really, really hard, taking risks. And, and embracing again, that whole like kind of provider, [00:51:10] you wanna be able to be the provider. I, I always like when people acknowledge the double edge of the masculine traits and roles and, and like you said, everybody needs to make [00:51:20] their choice. Nobody's making a wrong choice for the individual. Right. There's nothing wrong with it. Guy being a homemaker. Yeah. In fact, it's kind of awesome when you see it. That's my favorite thing is to see a dad with a pile of kids in the grocery store. I have [00:51:30] makes me smile every time and I'm like, I love you. The like, like, like building systems within the home. I truly like business. Yeah. Like, yeah. I like the acknowledgement of that because otherwise you can [00:51:40] lose. Like if you don't notice where it's hurting you, it's not gonna push you as well as you want it to. Mm-hmm. Right. So I, I really appreciate you kind of, uh, threading that line between those two. [00:51:50] The social dynamics of things now are a lot more about social signaling than helping people make choices, right? Like the dream of feminism is that people get to choose. [00:52:00] That's it. Like that, like at its core, that's what feminism is, is like everybody's empowered to make a choice for the life that they want. And I think as we kind of dial [00:52:10] in that dream as it were, people had to overcorrect right now, like, and it's screwed everybody, right? A guy can only pay a provider, but like, women have to do everything, [00:52:20] which means being a provider too. So what's, what is the room for the guy in the family? Right? Or before when we pushed guys so hard to the provider role, we drowned to the father role. It's [00:52:30] just about picking and like partnering up with someone that wants similar things that you two can negotiate with. Yeah. That's it. And, and it doesn't have to be complicated. Yeah. And [00:52:40] I think that's the whole point up is like, I think your, your values will probably shift a little bit when, when you have kids, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, they should, God, hope so. Right.[00:52:50] Yeah, you're gonna wanna be shifting responsibilities and work as a team, right? To provide the, what makes the most [00:53:00] sense, um, provide the best life and the fair life and spend time together, right? And it makes between, so whatever that looks like. And, you know, my, so my fiance right now is actually in the process of [00:53:10] starting, um, uh, her own company as well. And, you know, we don't know what it will look like when we both are, you know, because once you're, once you're, once you're in the entrepreneurial thing, especially [00:53:20] early days, like it, like says it's a ton of your time. And we might have to circle for, I have to be, because she was extremely supportive with me when I started the company, right? Yeah. So it might be her turn for no income, right. [00:53:30] And yeah, I'm thankful that, I hope I can teach her some of the lessons that I had to go through. Um, but yeah, she might, you know, I, I might have to be leaving work early to take care of the kid to help her pursue her [00:53:40] dream. Right? Like, who knows what that dynamic looks like. Yeah. Yeah. It's just to be there for each other, right. I do my best not to have too much of an agenda because as a therapist, right, [00:53:50] we, that's where we can mess up our clinical work is if we have an agenda in your life. But we're, it's just been so consistently seen on people's happiness is [00:54:00] almost every guy work with, when you have kids, you gotta take a work stall. Like not, you don't, you're gonna keep working, right? Like most guys are not gonna be the stay at home dad. [00:54:10] But you can't be in a career push because you're gonna miss things that you don't get back. Yeah. Like you're gonna miss the first steps, you're gonna not be able to coach your kid's team. You're gonna, [00:54:20] all the things that you dreamt of about being a dad. Yeah. It can't do in the first 10 years of the kid be in there if you wanna do those things. Well, and that goes back to circles, back to like, remember we talking about my anxiety? [00:54:30] Like anxiety about, because I'm 33 now. Like, okay, I need to get all this infrastructure down in my business so I can buy time [00:54:40] in the future with my kids. Right. Um, but then it's like, when is enough enough? Because I don't, I don't have to work as much as I used to. No. And you probably don't need as much as you think you do. Right? [00:54:50] Like that's just it. That what I always like with people, their range is about money. I swear to God, half of them come in and when I have them go do their books and look at their numbers and look at their [00:55:00] goals, if they're over 35, they're there. Mm-hmm. They're right where they wanna be. They just have been, they haven't looked and the answer's always been more. Yeah. So the best [00:55:10] thing clinically that you can do around money is pick a number and then like look for progress points in that number and let see how it changes how you feel. But if you don't have a metric, [00:55:20] you're just host. It's just always more. Yeah. And I'm just clear understanding. Like I had a goal to buy a Bronco when I hit a certain number and a certain task and didn't, it's [00:55:30] like, I mean, I wanted to return it and appreciate as soon as I drove off a lot because it just didn't increase the happiness the most I thought it would. Yeah. And again, I look back, I'm grateful, appreciate I. [00:55:40] I rather put that money towards the wedding or something else, right? So yeah. Yeah. Priorities shifted. That's okay. Yeah. Well, man, I, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on and the work you've [00:55:50] been doing. I'm really happy to have this conversation. It's kinda hard to find guys that can navigate that thread between the two worlds. And I think it means a lot. It's particularly in like the [00:56:00] political climate and how we're also divided and we divide on a lot of those, uh, like economic lines, right? Mm-hmm. Where white collar folks don't respect blue collar folks and vice versa.[00:56:10] I hoping that this conversation with you and the other conversations you're having having are helping guys like cross those a bit better and start to build those things out. So, thank you and, [00:56:20] and again, I appreciate the time on there because I've gained new perspective on, you know, how you see the world and how you think about things. And I would agree on everything. And again, even if you don't agree, I think [00:56:30] it's the point of this, have conversation, right? Open to having conversations. Too many people, again, it's all about political climate. It's too many are just not open to the other side. And [00:56:40] we didn't really go too much on the other side Right. Of, of anything. But, um, I hope people Yeah, I I think there's, as you talk about, there's people that are, uh, lost, confused, [00:56:50] right. And well, you know, and I think it's on purpose, man. Like, I, I don't think people are failing. I think our systems are. Yeah. Right. It's just so easy to surround yourself with [00:57:00] people that think like you, that it's hard to remember. You know? I, I think, what was it in the, like the eighties or nineties, you could sit down with somebody from anywhere in America and you, [00:57:10] you two were likely to agree on 70% of the issues facing the country in that moment. Mm-hmm. Right? And now like we don't even get to find out that number 'cause we find out like, so guns are my thing. Where are you on [00:57:20] guns? Yeah. Oh, abortion's my thing. Where are you on abortion? Yeah. And then like, none of the rest of it happens. Yeah. And again, I don't think you actually agree on most things. It's just that [00:57:30] the, I learned this from a psychologist. I was, uh, his name was Ericho and he mentored me a couple years ago and he. The biggest issue in conversations [00:57:40] is the defensive wall. Once the defensive wall gets triggered, there is no more listening. Right. Um, and literally the, the part of the brain, I forget, the brain stem, that shares [00:57:50] logic and, um, emotions like they share, share the same neural pathway or whatever. It's so like once you, once you get emotional logic goes up the window, so you gotta stop that trigger from going out, but you wanna have effective [00:58:00] conversation. Yeah, I would, I would reframe that from emotional to defensive. Right? Like, once you feel like you have to protect yourself, you're not supposed to be in a space to be curious about [00:58:10] somebody else. Yeah. And you can't be curious about somebody else without being secure in your defenses. Right. And that's like Maslow's hierarchy needs kind of thing too, as well. Yeah. [00:58:20] Well I just like that curiosity is emotional, right? Like your interest in people, the reason why your companies have done so well, the reason why your employees like you, like they do, the reason why you're able to come on here and connect with [00:58:30] thousands of people that you've never met is because your emotional about the curiosity of people. And that wouldn't happen if you didn't give a shit. Yeah, it's a lot of work. Yeah. [00:58:40] Which sounds like a lot of work, man. I've not done your gig, but mad. It sounds like you do a lot of work. Yeah. As as you, man, man, I think, uh, I dunno man. I think, I think everything's a lot of work, [00:58:50] right? Yeah. Doing a lot. It's a lot of work. As long, as long as it's worth doing, right? Yeah. All right, man. Well, I, again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time. Thanks so much for coming and sharing [00:59:00] these things. Appreciate it. And that's our conversation with Jake still. I really enjoyed the conversation and opening up the dialogue around what blue and white collar guys can learn from each other, what they do well, and [00:59:10] how those transitions might go bouncing between the two of them.For the fact check for this episode, we really didn't get anything wrong. I put up some data along the way in the video and I'll have it in the [00:59:20] show notes to make sure that we're backing up our claims that we made. But overall, everything went really smoothly and there was nothing that even really needs nuance correction. So I'm really happy with that. I asked you at the [00:59:30] beginning to think of a skill listening to this that you might wanna pick up whatever skill you chose, who's someone in your life that's gonna help you learn it. If you can take a moment and put it in the comments or [00:59:40] message me what the skill is and who's gonna help you learn it. Remember, these things are hard to take on, so doing 'em all by yourself and doing it with just a book or a podcast, sure, we can do it that way, but if you can find [00:59:50] someone to connect with in your life to do it, it's gonna go so much better, and I really hope you leverage this idea to connect out in your world. Thanks so much for listening to the episode. [01:00:00] Join us next week on episode 14 where we talk about how to be better neighbors to black men in this country. I'll see you [01:00:10] there.