[00:00:00] Like I always get a little nervous when I walk into a kind of men's group and everybody's the same. The most simple thing, honestly, I say is find two other men and decide we're gonna start meeting at this day [00:00:10] and at this time because we want this. And for me, what I found being a therapist, I really struggled to just show up as a guy. To some extent, a group can only go as [00:00:20] deep as its least committed member. Are you trying to find a group of guys you can have real conversations with? Are you considering joining or maybe even founding a men's group of your own? If you're looking for the answers to those questions, you're in the [00:00:30] right place. My name's Tim Winneke. This is American Masculinity, and in our 15th episode, we're bringing on Jason Lang. Jason's got over a decade of experience in the men's space, and now he helps men [00:00:40] build them. We're really lucky to have his perspective on this show. I found his wisdom, practical and useful. I'm sure you will too. While you listen to the conversation, do me a favor and think about the kinds of [00:00:50] men you would wanna see in a men's group you wanted to join. We'll talk about a little bit more at the end. I'll see you there. Let's get started.[00:01:00] Hey Jason. Thanks so much for coming on, man. So excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Tim. I'm gonna, I like we were talking about [00:01:10] a little earlier, it's, it's just been really kind at how many people in the helping space have been willing to help us get this started, and so I just really wanna publicly say thank you so much for coming on and helping us do this, [00:01:20] man, it means a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I'm deeply aligned with the mission, so, so excited to be here with you. I, I've looked a little bit at your work, but you, can you tell our listeners why you're qualified to tell people how to get men's groups [00:01:30] going? Yeah. Uh, my journey into becoming a men's group facilitator, proponent cheerleader, really started with my own journey. I got exposed [00:01:40] pretty luckily, I would say to my first men's group in my mid twenties, back in the mid two thousands. And, you know, back then they were around, but not [00:01:50] nearly. The cultural presence, you know, men's work as now, so back then you said men's group and most people would think of a church group or maybe an AA group, both of which have [00:02:00] incredible value but are a little different than what, you know, I'm kind of leading and what's emerging now. So I got into my first group in my twenties and it was the first time I was really [00:02:10] exposed to deep masculine presence, connection, support, and yes, accountability and kind [00:02:20] of, you know, in some good ways got got called forward. In myself in a place a time when I was feeling pretty lost and just really couldn't quite find my footing. I found a crew of [00:02:30] men who, some of whom were older than me, wiser than me, some of whom were peers, that really helped me solidify and start to root myself and [00:02:40] take some of the first bold actions I had in my life. Uh, I was raised, you know, I'm a white guy if you can't see me. Raised lower middle class in the Midwest of the US and had [00:02:50] most of my basic security needs totally met and a lot of privilege in a sense, but my family had zero. Skill or sense of interiority. There was [00:03:00] no emotional capacity, attunement connection, and very little physical as I later discovered, as I got deeper into my journey. And so when I launched out into the [00:03:10] world, I was this deeply anxious, very kind of numb, frozen guy for a large chunk of my life. And it was really the [00:03:20] consistency of men's work in men's group in particular that started to thaw me out and help me feel more comfortable in myself. And then. I was [00:03:30] so into it, right. I was just so into group. I was talking about it all the time. Eventually, my, my first group, partly because of the power of a men's group, helped me get [00:03:40] aligned to the passion I wanted to pursue at the time, which was filmmaking and the arts. And it was because of that, I moved my whole life out to Los Angeles and dove into a career doing [00:03:50] that and focused on that, you know, for probably two or three years and let go of men's group and quickly, quickly was brought very close to the [00:04:00] reality. Wow. I don't do well outside of a container like that. Mm-hmm. Left to my own devices. I, I really, I need men like that. I got super overweight, I was addicted to [00:04:10] porn. I was totally stressed out financially, and I just wasn't thriving and it, it became pretty clear like, okay, I need a group. To help me get, get my [00:04:20] stuff back together. So, uh, me and two guys in LA that I had been in touch with started one out there. One of, uh, the, the men in that was a therapist. So we met in his [00:04:30] office and, you know, guys, I would talk about it so much. Guys would ask me, can I come, can I come? And I'd be like, no, we're full. Like, we literally can't fit any more men in the room. So that led me to just start [00:04:40] leading groups outta my, uh, living room in the middle of Los Angeles. I just post 'em on meetup and I got such positive response from that. I was like, [00:04:50] okay, thi this, this feels good. And unlike other things I was doing for finances at the time, every time I did it, I felt better. Like I felt more energized and I was like, oh, if there's a [00:05:00] way to make a living doing this, I wanna do it 'cause it's changed my life and now I wanna bring this to other men. And so I went out and got a bunch of training over a couple years as an authentic relating [00:05:10] facilitator doing men's work with John Weinland studying under, um, a psychotherapist who teaches a kind of non therapy, um, shadow work for men and [00:05:20] just fallen in love. So now men's work's kind of the bigger umbrella I work under, but my mission is every man should be in a men's group, which I think is one of the missing pieces [00:05:30] for particularly Western American men right now that compliments it does not replace, but it compliments therapy, coaching, et cetera. [00:05:40] Yeah, I think there's a very different thing that you get being in some kind of community. A friend of mine was, we were talking about the distinction between community, friendship, and [00:05:50] clinical work. And the nice thing with community is you don't have to like everybody. In fact, it's usually really useful to have somebody you don't like there to learn from. And I, I think that [00:06:00] as a, like an individual coach or counselor, there's only so much perspective people get reflected from you based on what they see. Mm-hmm. And so looking out at a group of, hopefully a [00:06:10] little bit different guys, right? Like I always get a little nervous when I walk into kind a men's group and everybody's the same just because there's less opportunities. I struggled a little bit too when I lost some of my groups, right? Coming outta the [00:06:20] military, you have people around you, you have accountability around you and that transition into just the free floating solo life, it's tricky. And not everybody makes the turn. [00:06:30] It took me probably six months to kind of get my legs under me at all, just to find some, I don't know, people I trusted around me for that accountability. A hundred percent. I think it's so [00:06:40] important for us guys, and I mean, part of my argument is we thrive. When we have our band of brothers, you know, so to speak, when we, when we go deep with a certain group of guys, and you, [00:06:50] you know, you know, may know the science of this behind, behind this more. But, um, a guy in one of the communities that I'm in was talking about, you know, difference between male and female bodies, [00:07:00] of which there are some, right? We both have masculine and feminine, but there are some differences. And was one was around the wiring, the receptors for oxytocin and [00:07:10] vasopressin and male bodies tend to have more receptors for vasopressin, which is a similar bonding hormone, but it's different how, you know, what causes that bonding, [00:07:20] going through hard shit together. Mm-hmm. Surviving hard things, problem solving. Facing challenge. And I think without that, a lot of the [00:07:30] men who who show up to me are kind of depressed and alone and isolated. I think the military's a great place where people see that so [00:07:40] clearly, like the level of bonding clients I've worked with that have been in the come back, it's like, yeah, when the stuff you go through together, like you're in it for life. You know, you might not see 'em for a [00:07:50] long time, but there's a deep bond and I've found men's groups can be a version of that. Obviously it's not the same thing. And kind of in some sense, [00:08:00] instead of ex facing external challenges a lot what we're learning to do is face the inner challenges inside of us, but with support around us. And it's [00:08:10] profound, right? The, the level of belonging and purpose is, is what I often tell guys you can get from being part of a really powerful peer group. Well, and like one of the first [00:08:20] questions I had down to talk about, I don't even try to ask because we've been kinda getting into it already, which is great. I think the other thing I always like to think of therapy is kind of a training wheels relationship, right? Yeah. [00:08:30] You're in front of somebody who cares about you. Uh, you have an implicit reason to trust them. They've got a license, they've got confidentiality. And ideally you take kind of that feeling of connection [00:08:40] out into your world. And I think we've lost so much practice in community that men's groups fill that gap from a social lens. You know, you're so [00:08:50] much better off trying to go connect just out in the world, out at work, where whatever you're doing after you've had some safety to work out the kinks and to go through that [00:09:00] awkward phase of how do I be in a group of people after the pandemic or after growing up with just in front of a screen. Or, or, or, right. How I often [00:09:10] put that is right. This is where I think they're so complimentary. They're not replacements for each other, but they can be incredible cross training, right? Like you, sometimes you need to sprint, sometimes you need to, [00:09:20] weight lifts is. You know, the, the beauty of like a therapeutic relationship, the way I kind of often put it is it's about the container is literally that the [00:09:30] direction of attunement is one way. Right? Unfortunately, the truth is I've heard from people, it's like if your therapist is coming in and you're having to [00:09:40] regulate them, something's not going right in that relationship. Ideally, what you're rewiring there is that pattern of what loving presence put on you is like, [00:09:50] which, you know, goes right to so much of our attachment wounding, often as, as kids, and that's a place where we can mend that and have this safe, clear container for, you know, the whole point [00:10:00] here is I don't have to care take you. It's, I'm allowed to receive and, and to come up against my limits in some sense of what it's like to be in presence. And you're right, in [00:10:10] a peer men's group, it's different. 'cause it's not about that. It's about exchanging that Sometimes I'm holding space for you. Sometimes you're holding space for me [00:10:20] and there's more of a variety. You are right. Of beliefs and histories and structures and you know, I just did, I recorded a thing recently on how to kind of [00:10:30] a little, a little clickbait about how to ai proof yourself as a man. And one of the main things I talked about was what you nailed our capacity to stay in [00:10:40] connection even during conflict and difference. Mm-hmm. Right. So friction, can I stay connected when there's friction? Because if there's one [00:10:50] skill, right? That seems to be atrophying pretty fast in our culture, it's that mm-hmm. We get online, we get into our camps. Anyone who's a little different is the total enemy. [00:11:00] And what I love about men's groups and some of the, particularly some of the shadow ones I lead is paradoxically, when we start from, I [00:11:10] don't even know who you are and what's going on in your life, what you do for furlough, any of that, but we go right. To your deepest pain in a sense. And we connect there [00:11:20] first. All the other stuff matters so much less. It's like, oh wow, then I find out you have a completely different worldview than me. That's so fascinating. But we're [00:11:30] already so bonded 'cause we connected as humans first. And I think there's something really potent and powerful to that. And like you said, a skill building [00:11:40] place of a different kind than the therapeutic relationship where we do get to get triggered by other guys. We get to get annoyed by other guys. They get to get annoyed by us and we get to [00:11:50] share that with each other. Hey, here's what it's like to actually be with you right now. That is crazy powerful feedback. If we've never experienced it before, coming from someone who [00:12:00] cares about us and isn't, it isn't sharing it to shame us, but because they wanna be closer to us. You know, you would, you were talking about the difference in the chemicals earlier. Right. [00:12:10] And I think one of the things that men's group orchestrate really well is internal work as work, right? Like people are showing up. Yes. [00:12:20] Not, I imagine a woman's group looks a lot different. I'm sure there's still structure to it and things like that, but there's a different kind of socialization that women tend to show up with [00:12:30] already that we're lacking. And the old adage of men bond side to side, women bond face to face always makes a lot of sense, right? Like you're, uh, you're a lot more likely [00:12:40] to be kind of kind and listen to a guy's perspective when you've seen him do something hard with you. Even if it's just like working a soup kitchen. Right. It doesn't take [00:12:50] much. So true. You mentioned shadow work a few times. Just so the listeners can get an idea of what that is. Can you gimme like the one to two minute summation? Yeah. I mean, [00:13:00] you know, shadow work is such a esoteric, big concept in some sense. There's the ying in shadow work and there's more specific variations, obviously, but I mean at its most general, it's [00:13:10] bringing to consciousness that which is unconscious inside of us. So what are the patterns and behaviors, you know, kind in [00:13:20] some sense, what's our operating system like? The rules we're, we're trying to make the world work by that. Oftentimes we're not even aware of that. [00:13:30] Usually have some kind of roots in some kind of adverse experience. We, we processed, or, or sorry, failed the process earlier in life because [00:13:40] we didn't have the safety support or tools to do it. So, you know, shadow work is really just, oftentimes guys, you know, when they come to my shadow programs, it's [00:13:50] one of the big things is there's this thing I keep doing. I don't wanna be doing it, and yet I keep doing it. I like what is going on with that? A way I show up in [00:14:00] my relationship or in my finances or addictions or certain, certain things like that. And so Shadow work's really the process of just bringing that to the light. Okay. Like what, [00:14:10] what is it in my body mind usually something I'm trying to protect myself from. So I've created this whole sophisticated, you know, machinery to avoid that, [00:14:20] that I can then once I become aware of it, I have so much more choice. Mm-hmm. Right. It's, it's like, it's the fish becoming aware of the [00:14:30] water. They're swimming. Right. So most of their life, they're just like, what do you mean water? Yeah. And then you take 'em outta the water, like, oh my God. It's the matrix moment. Right? Well, that's, that's what, that's what's [00:14:40] fun about the depth work. Like no matter the frame, it's people get their why, and once you have your why, it makes it a lot easier to play around with the what. You know, people often ask me, [00:14:50] so like, what is a men's group? What do you do in a men's group? And my answer is usually, well, it's, that's kind of like asking, Hey, do you meditate? And then you're like, well, what kind of meditation? There is an infinite variety in some [00:15:00] sense. And men's groups can be the same. Right? There's accountability groups, there's social groups, there's community oriented groups, there's addiction in recovery groups, there's professional [00:15:10] groups, there's practice groups which are about embodiment and just practice. And then there's, you know, things like shadow work groups. And then there's groups that I kind of like, which blend a little [00:15:20] bit of all of them, but, and I'm part of multiple groups, right? Because some of them serve me in different ways. To me that, that, that's been a great joy. It's like the main, my main source of [00:15:30] community now is the different men's groups I'm in. Mm-hmm. I love the variation that we have because I think that opens the door up to more and more men starting them. I, I think there's, [00:15:40] so, like most guys, when you talk to 'em about this, they think of it as like a therapy group where somebody's gonna show up and make everybody cry. And that's not most. Group, like yeah, there's catharsis in a [00:15:50] lot of 'em. And it is a, it is nice to have a space where men can like show some tears, but that's not what it has to be. So leaving like your, you really [00:16:00] prefer and do the depth work, but what makes men's groups actually work across the board? Like what is kind of a key feature that makes that work for folks? Yeah. I would say, [00:16:10] you know, two things immediately come to mind. Shared context and commitment. Mm-hmm. And so what I mean by shared context is at at least some sense of our why, [00:16:20] why are we here? And, you know, and a little bit of what, what are we wanting to get out of this time with each other? If you don't set that early on, you know, it's pretty easy [00:16:30] for men in community to gravitate to talking about things. Mm-hmm. Just in their head talking about concepts and ideas and politics [00:16:40] and things, which, you know, that that's a version of a men's group. That's not necessarily the version I lead, which is about. Getting more present and deep and connected and going under the [00:16:50] hood, so to speak. But you need to kind of have that shared reality around that. And then commitment is the other big thing. I find that to some extent, a group can only go as [00:17:00] deep as its least committed member. Mm-hmm. Sometimes, you know, I've been through the developmental journey of starting groups myself. I help men do that. Now sometimes if we don't set a tight container, 'cause we're like, oh [00:17:10] no, I like so and so, and I do want them to be able to come when they can. It starts to create a leaky energy. Mm-hmm. Where, well, I don't know, they make it when they can, well maybe I can't make it this week either. And then [00:17:20] it gets fragile in some sense. Mm-hmm. And there's a different energy to it, right. Of, well, this isn't really anyone's priority, it's nice when we can do it. But, you know, contrast that [00:17:30] to, you know, the group, uh, I left when I moved away from here that I'm now back in after 14 years, which is, that's wild. Pretty wild. They've been meeting the whole time. These guys are, [00:17:40] they're to the grave. They're, we're gonna watch each other die. And we're here twice a month unless there's an emergency. Like this is, this is a sacrament in your [00:17:50] life. This is a commitment. You reorient your life around being here. And it means that space is pretty heightened when we're in it. It's deep. The men that are there really want to be [00:18:00] there, and that has an impact, right? On the feeling of being in the group. So those are two things I often, um, well, I actually just support guys in, um, creating, like, you [00:18:10] get, you wanna get really clear about why and what you're creating so you can magnetize. It doesn't mean your group's right, and other group's wrong, but you want to attract the right people who are [00:18:20] yes to that. So then they can be all in with that commitment. And there can be that feeling of we value, I value being here and I want you to value it just as much. [00:18:30] 'cause that creates an energy, it creates a type of commitment that is in and of itself, I have found quite meaningful in my life. You know, it's [00:18:40] so. It's so validating to hear you talk about the need for mission and commitment. So I was looking around town and there wasn't any get together for male clinicians. [00:18:50] Right. Wow. And there's only one in five of us are men in the field. And so it is a unique experience, right? That like sometimes it's just nice to have other guys that get the weird job.[00:19:00] And when I made the time, flexible attendance was like one or two guys would show up and it wasn't generally the same guys. And the minute I'm like, okay, this Friday of [00:19:10] the month at this time, all of a sudden we're getting this like same guy starts showing up. That consistently really starts to level off. And I think having that [00:19:20] mission or that like here's what the group is for, helps so many guys because all of a sudden, like the ones that are showing up are on board for whatever that is. Exactly. [00:19:30] And like we were talking about earlier, that social friction is so important for growth that if there isn't a shared mission to make that friction worth. You're not gonna go back, you're just gonna like, write [00:19:40] off somebody in the group and wanna leave. There's a really broad range of like men's groups that are out there as far as their impact, um, their establishment. Like we were talking earlier, we got [00:19:50] Mark Azule out here, who's a great guy, runs fantastic groups, and his groups aren't cheap. Right? Uhhuh, like, you gotta, you gotta be a little well off to get into those groups. For the guys that [00:20:00] don't have the resources to pay to join something that's already established, that's ran by some kind of professional, how do you recommend they start building one up themselves? [00:20:10] Yeah, there's a whole range here and I'll just out myself first. I'm gonna name something I built for this very reason, but it's not the only mechanism for this. It's just, I actually [00:20:20] started getting asked this a lot by men. You know, there is one great book by, uh, the guys who started a mankind project back in, back in the day. A Circle of men, that's a, it's like 20 bucks online and it'll give you a great [00:20:30] structure. Mm-hmm. Um, if nothing else to start with, the most simple thing, honestly, I say is find two other men. Decide we're gonna start meeting at this day and at this time because [00:20:40] we want this. That's how I started my group in la. I found two other guys who were committed and our like, kind of like you said, our commitment to that time started to create a wake [00:20:50] that's some other guys came in on. And it doesn't have to be super complicated. You know, there's all kinds of formal things I can teach about men's groups and connection and how you weave [00:21:00] together a group and you know, there's real skills and capacities there. But at its most simple, it's checking. It's actually breaking the men side by side thing and saying, [00:21:10] Hey, let's turn our attention onto each other rather than triangulating. I'm gonna put my attention on you. You're gonna put my attention on me. What's going on in your life? Where are you in [00:21:20] pain? Where are you struggling? Where do you need help? What are you wanting? What's in the way of that? Right? Just simple questions like that are often, you know, I get a lot of guys who do my [00:21:30] program and then they go out, you know, for a beer with a buddy and they end up having the type of conversation they've never had before and they're like, I've known this guy for 20 years and we went [00:21:40] deeper in one night than we had that whole 20 years. Once you learn where to place your attention in a sense, so that, just that simple, like literally just grab [00:21:50] a couple guys and say, let's talk about life. That is revolutionary for a lot of men. I, I would say. Then the other thing I'll kind of point to is, you know, there's more and more groups [00:22:00] being offered right now, which is great online, in person, meetup.com, Eventbrite, stuff like you and Mark are hosting, like it's taken off, which is [00:22:10] extremely encouraging. I can share that even though I lead groups, so I lead programs that take men through the experience and my deepest [00:22:20] passion. Is actually helping men start their own groups. Mm-hmm. Because, and this is based on just my experience and now what I've helped other men do. [00:22:30] The level of ownership when it's not someone else's group, there's no leader. We are here 'cause we are committed to each other [00:22:40] in depth is a rare and precious thing. So I call these peer or decentralized men's groups, right? Yeah. Where we can get tools and you know, my first group, even the one I keep talking [00:22:50] about, for a year, we had a leader and then he kind of gave us the keys once we learned what to do. But then it became, you know, ours. And so I'm [00:23:00] super passionate about if you cannot find a group that you can afford or works for your schedule or whatever in your, your community or [00:23:10] locale, this is, this is the challenge I say to guys. Then I think it's your responsibility to start it. 'cause if you can't find it, there's another guy out there in your situation who can't as [00:23:20] well. And one of the biggest acts of leadership you can do is planting that flag like you did. Hey, here's this thing. I, I kind of would like some community around being a clinician [00:23:30] as a, you know, as a man, there's nothing, uh, there are a lot of ways you could have gone with that. You took the bold one and said, okay, well maybe I'm gonna start something here and create the community I'm kind of longing for.[00:23:40] So I'm really passionate about it. And I've started a, you know, I did launch something this year that's I call men's group experience, which is for guys who just wanna get a [00:23:50] hit of what a 12 week men's group is like. Mm-hmm. It's, um, I give the whole structure. It's six guys that meet online every week. Uh, for 12 weeks and [00:24:00] then have experienced it. And whether you then want to continue with that group or you now have a framework in your bones that you can then bring to your local community, your church, [00:24:10] your buddies, your work coworkers, whatever that might be. And then I have a, a another thing around that, that's an actual training, like a, a profession, kind of a, okay, here's everything I've [00:24:20] ever learned about facilitating groups and what it takes to make one run for here that's not free, but it's, you know, reasonable, especially if you get it as a group. And there are definitely [00:24:30] just free resources out there. I, I can tell you Owen Marcus, who co-founded every man has now, uh, launched his own the MELD community, his whole f framework's free online [00:24:40] as well. So if you're hungry for it, you can find it. What I found in my journey, and which is I think the nice way to do the dance, if possible, [00:24:50] is have the experience and then it's much easier to lead people through it. Yeah. Right. So sit in circle for a while, have some experience. Doesn't mean that you have to like do it for 10 [00:25:00] years, but, you know, sit in some circles, get the framework, get the feeling of what kind of depth is possible, and then start one like, uh, you know, I'll be [00:25:10] first to, to cheerlead you if you do. It's one, one of the things that I really think would be a, you know, talk about American masculinity, uh, is a huge gap in our culture where we can really move [00:25:20] the needle pretty fast. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned that. So the whole reason I got the idea is, uh, mark had done years ago, he had, he had done the similar kind of group, [00:25:30] but only ran it for a year. Just because he was like, all right, I ran it. Who's taking it up? And no one picked it up. Right. Which is kind of normal for those things, right? Sometimes, yeah. People aren't gonna step up. [00:25:40] But then I went out and tried to do general men's groups, and for me, what I found being a therapist, I really struggled to just show up as a guy. Like the minute people started talking about death, phi, [00:25:50] like all of my therapy instincts. We're kicking in and disrupting. Right. That is not the environment for that, and no one's asking me for that. Like, uh, I joke a lot with my [00:26:00] students where I'm like, your, your behaviors that you exhibit in a therapy session are garbage behaviors with your loved ones. That's, that's funny. [00:26:10] Like you can't have that emotional distance to do the work with somebody you're really emotional with. And so that really made it easier when it was my turn to start leading something [00:26:20] that exp that little bit of experience with Mark, this experience of running through a few men's groups, getting a feeling for what that room feels like and what to do with it was profoundly helpful. So even if you want to be [00:26:30] the guy that runs it, I, I think Jason's absolutely right if you can just go try a few, even if they're not quite in alignment with what you want, just to get a feel for it. Yeah. What's the biggest mistake you see guys [00:26:40] make as they kind of jump into trying to build men's groups or joining them? Yeah, I would, I would honestly say the, the commitment thing, not having a tight enough container. What I've now seen multiple [00:26:50] times is I'm much more of the side, and I think it's more effective to have a smaller group of guys that are all really committed than the bigger net with [00:27:00] flaky attendance. And then, you know, another one is, um, it's kind of a interesting one to say, but it's part of what I'm training my guys on is being [00:27:10] willing to cut each other off. And what I mean by that is to prioritize depth in the group. You know, I, I tend to work with a lot of so-called nice guys and [00:27:20] it's easy for, you know, just someone keeps talking and, oh my God, the timer, what off? But I don't wanna be a, you know, I don't wanna be mean. Clearly he needs this, in that lack of boundaries can really impact a [00:27:30] group. Yeah. So being willing to actually interrupt someone, but for the sake of depth. I think is the key thing here is a real [00:27:40] capacity that I've realized I've had to train, uh, my groups in, uh, of, it's not that I want you to stop, it's just I've, you've been going [00:27:50] for like five minutes and I'm not even sure what you're wanting or wanting to talk about, and I really want to get clear so we can serve you or support you, you know, whatever it might be, um, is a real [00:28:00] capacity. And also not weaving in from the beginning. I, I learned this in one of the programs I created where our first two cohorts, we hadn't done this, and then now we've [00:28:10] learned our lesson, uh, weaving into the fabric of the group clearings early on so that if there's anything men need to clear it, you actually start [00:28:20] meetings with it. What do you mean clearing? So clearings would be anytime too, right? We've been talking about friction. If you and I have some kind of friction, you [00:28:30] said something that hurt my feelings or I feel mad at you 'cause you told me you'd call me offline and you didn't, whatever. Just anything that is energetically in between the [00:28:40] two of us being open and present and being fully in the group together is something that needs to be cleared. Mm-hmm. Right? So rather than avoiding it, we actually [00:28:50] create a conscious space to go into the conflict and get clear about what happened, what we're each feeling about it, is there anything we need to do to restore integrity and harmony and [00:29:00] trust, et cetera Again, 'cause what'll happen if I've had this in my groups since some I launch, then we learn the lesson. If you don't, that stuff starts to accumulate. Guys aren't [00:29:10] fully in, or one man's avoiding some and it changes the whole energy of the group pretty fast and they'll break apart. Yeah. The vibe just gets right because not everyone's fully [00:29:20] participating in a sense. So it's, and it's. Consciously building this skill and capacity that actually will deepen our trust with each other. If we clear this stuff and if for so many men, it [00:29:30] is so tremendously healing to start to have relationships where, oh, I don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be perfect. I step on your toes sometimes you step on my [00:29:40] toes sometimes, but wow, what I now trust is we have a mechanism to restore and to repair [00:29:50] those ruptures together and building that capacity in a group. You know, another thing you were talking about earlier, lo and behold, makes it a lot easier to do it out in life [00:30:00] really profoundly. So, you know, being willing to interrupt each other for the sake of depth, being willing to create clearings for each other, having strong commitments, I think are all things [00:30:10] that are really, really powerful. In addition to, you know, that shared context we kind of talked about earlier, so consistency, shared mission. [00:30:20] And a structure around accountability from the very start. Yes. Yeah. Agreements are huge part, just very broad when we [00:30:30] talk about accountability, right. To include not just you're making it here, but that you're showing up here in the way that you mean to, and that we can have accountability with each other over whatever rubs.[00:30:40] Yeah, exactly. And there's a process and a commitment to not holding that in resentment or silence, but to actually bringing it forward. And this is another [00:30:50] one I've had to learn, uh, some lessons around because it's, you know, it's such a kind of a masculine idea of, oh, you know, anytime I have a beef with you, I'm gonna bring it to you [00:31:00] first. Mm-hmm. You know, I would never bring it to the group. The challenge I've actually found with that is you and I can be processing our beef offline, but both be [00:31:10] totally in our shadows and reactivity. And the opportunity at actually bringing it forward in a group is the group can see. [00:31:20] Both of where we might not be owning our stuff and actually point out kind as as that objective third in a sense of, Hey, wow, yeah, you know, you've actually [00:31:30] got a part to this too. Can you, can you see that, you know, you're, you're, you're telling him it's all about him. But we see this too, like in, that's been a revelation and it's a lot more vulnerable. It [00:31:40] is to like, everybody's got my eyes on me. I'm gonna bring up my beef with you now. And like how do we skillfully navigate that? It's not the only way to do it, but it is a, a [00:31:50] lesson I've learned because I had some guys try to clear things offline and they actually made it worse with each other because they just got further entrenched. 'cause they couldn't see in some [00:32:00] sense part of what the other person was trying to illuminate for them. Yeah. I think it can often click over into that status negotiation that men often fall into. Yeah. And I think that's [00:32:10] a natural negotiation that we fall into. This is not like me stigmatizing that. But I think you're exactly right when you say the group is a container that you get to practice this [00:32:20] in and without the group, when you aren't very skilled in it, or one of you isn't very skilled in it, it's a lot easier to make those big mistakes. I I often say like, guys need [00:32:30] guardrails. Uh, yeah. We need people around us that like when we start to get off course, they give us a little nudge. Right. Or sometimes a big nudge, depending. Totally. And it, and it's interesting, whenever I go train [00:32:40] clinicians on working with men, I talk about accountability for like attendance. Like if a patient of mine misses twice in a row and it's not like a medical [00:32:50] emergency, we're having a conversation about whether they're continuing and if it happens again, they're gone. If they're consistently not doing the homework, we talk about in this session, [00:33:00] okay, man, I'm not wasting your time or your money. You, you're not ready to do this stuff. Yeah, maybe I'm not the approach for you. Let's find somebody who is, but it's not me. And the amount of times that [00:33:10] clinicians look at me with these big eyes. Of like, you know, hey, this is, this is what about like therapy is about that perfect acceptance. These groups are about this perfect acceptance. You can be perfectly [00:33:20] accepting of someone and acknowledge that this isn't the space for you then. Exactly. And that doesn't need to be aggressive. It doesn't need to be unkind. [00:33:30] Yeah. But it's important and it's particularly important for guys. Yeah. It's a big, you know, learning I've had to make as a coach. You know, I'm coming at things from a different angle, but it, there is a truth to, you know, I've [00:33:40] had to build the confidence in some sense to tell guys, Hey, I actually don't think this is the right medicine for you. Right. The my group or my program, or my offering, [00:33:50] uh, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just pretty clear to me that this isn't the most conducive environment to what you need right now. And then it's supporting them and, you know, [00:34:00] hopefully finding something else that does, because either they're not showing up in the ways they need to actually get the work out of it, or it's just not the right fit. Right? We're not providing the right medicine for their [00:34:10] stage of their healing journey, and that's an important thing. It was the standard. I, I had a hard time holding earlier 'cause I was coming from scarcity and oh my God, I gotta work with anyone. And [00:34:20] then it didn't feel good to me and it didn't feel good to the men when it became, you know, sometimes it'd become clear like, oh this isn't actually what you need. Right? This isn't actually gonna get you what you're yearning [00:34:30] for and I don't wanna be taking your money for that. Right. I don't wanna be taking your time for that. Even more precious than that. So I do think it's important to have those standards and [00:34:40] that commitment. 'cause then it also serves the guys who are in, 'cause then they can feel it too, right? They, they feel your commitment, they feel the commitment of the other men. And it does create that, [00:34:50] that wake, so to speak, is what I've been using of, okay, there's a, there's a current here and I wanna be plugged into it and these men are committed to it and I don't wanna be the one who messes that up in some [00:35:00] sense. It's like the healthy kind of accountability that is so good for a group. And again, you know, one person kind of being a little leaky around that, or just not having the capacity at this [00:35:10] moment in their life to show up in the ways they thought they did. It's okay to honor that and be like, okay, well then let, let's find out what else might work for you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the [00:35:20] trick is, is when something's not working out like that, one of the kind ways to help people is by helping them find what would work. [00:35:30] Yeah. And you can't make anybody go to anything. But I think it softens things so much when you're like, Hey, this space isn't working for you. Totally. There is space for you somewhere. Like, here are the things that [00:35:40] like, just talk to you man. These are what you're into. These are some things that might work. I hope you trust it. I had such a. Visceral experience of this. Um, in my twenties actually, the, the guy who led that [00:35:50] first men's group, he was a men's coach, and I started working with him and we went pretty deep in like three months. And, um, there was a point about three months in some old [00:36:00] pretty deep wounding around my childhood started coming up and I had kind of a big catharsis with him in a session. And at the end of it, you know, he held beautiful presence and at the end he's like, [00:36:10] Hey, I, you know, uh, I, I really wanna support you and I love you and this isn't really my thing. What, what, what kind of happened there? And I get a sense this is really what you need right [00:36:20] now. Just so happened his wife was a somatic therapist. It was a beautiful, he's like, you might want to consider, you know, it doesn't have to be my partner, but she's a sematic therapist. I think that could do something for you right now. [00:36:30] And then kind of once you've healed some of that, I think you'll be ready kind of. To, to jump back on what I'm doing. And it was one of the most loving, incredible [00:36:40] things. And I trusted him so much after that where I was like, wow, okay. You're really not in this for just the money, so to speak. Like, you, you want me to get what I want. And you're willing to kind [00:36:50] of realize where your gifts lie and where they don't. And that's kind of become a model for me, you know, that I try to hit. And then, yeah. I know the beautiful thing about this kind of networking and [00:37:00] growing a community of people in the men's work healing space is, and it's like, oh, now I've got a Rolodex. And it's like, okay, you know what? Actually I actually know someone who'd be perfect. Right? I [00:37:10] sometimes I'll get guys like with religious trauma from certain places, and it's like, yeah, I know. I know totally. Who to work with, right? Because this is what they do, this is what they do. Um, and [00:37:20] you're always better off with a specialist if you can get to one. Yeah, exactly. And then it's like, and then you can always come back, right? But it's like, clearly there's some other medicine right now that I think's gonna [00:37:30] serve you. Um. Even more. Well, I love that you said that he wasn't, like, the reason you knew he wasn't in in it for the money is because he knew what was going on [00:37:40] there. Where, you know, yeah, I'm helping you, but you need, you need something different. That's a big red flag for me when I'm listening to clients talk about where they're finding [00:37:50] community and it's a church or it's a group and their story is, this is the only way to X and you are only gonna get there through us. And [00:38:00] that's not like an immediate like, no, go for me. But it is a clear like yellow light. And so also I think be careful with that, [00:38:10] that imposter syndrome when you're going to build a group and kind of overpumping yourself about what the group's gonna do. Totally. I think that's an easy one to fall into as well. [00:38:20] The more we, we talk about this, I can't help but thinking about my experiences working in the non-profit world. So for non-profits, it's always driven by a passionate kind of pillar person [00:38:30] or three. Until they burn out. And most of the time they're recreating the wheel. Like if they took the time and knew where to look, they would've found people doing the kind of work they're [00:38:40] trying to do, but they never talked to them. And so I think the other thing that I would recommend if you're starting a group is you don't always need to go to other groups, but [00:38:50] you should absolutely talk to any other groups in your area, find out what they've got going on, talk to them about what the process looks like, talk about them, about like, what is [00:39:00] missing that, you know, my group might be a little different and provide something Right. And fill a niche. And I think one thing that also as a group leader, right, [00:39:10] it gives you a little bit more of a network of like, Hey, I'm leading a group and it's not going well, Phil. Like, what'd you do your third session in when somebody punched somebody or whatever. So, uh, we, [00:39:20] we just took a brief break, right? And I, I was processing and thinking a lot about what we had talked about. And that idea of joining other groups to get ideas was kinda kicking [00:39:30] around in my head. And I was reading somewhere and I can't remember where that service organizations are starting to make a comeback a little bit. Mm-hmm. [00:39:40] And the one I have experience with is the VFW Veterans of Foreign Wars. The first post for that ever is in Denver. So Denver's pretty awesome for that. Ah, [00:39:50] yeah. And about 10 years ago, they were dying out. Like all the VFWs, it was all a bunch of Vietnam vets that just showed up for like chili, a beer and a [00:40:00] quiet place. But younger vets want surface components. Like they're not just gonna show up to a bar to hang out in a bar, they wanna show up to go do something. And the post has now been [00:40:10] thriving for 10 years because they started incorporating like direct service missions and like they would've meetings about it and like, Hey, you want to join a community? You wanna join [00:40:20] some guys doing good? Show up for this. I'm wondering. Have you seen younger guys successfully join like the, the elk lodges, [00:40:30] the all the different, there's dozens of 'em depending on where you're in the country, right? Have you seen any guys have luck with that in the last five, 10 years? I haven't personally. Yeah. That I haven't. [00:40:40] Most young guys I know are pretty disconnected in that kind of locality. I think there's a desire for it. What, if anything I have seen is guys get into groups [00:40:50] and then in the trajectory of a group, often there's, okay, we love each other, we're serving each other, and wow, what we've cultivated here is really [00:41:00] special. How can what we've cultivated give back? I think So the group itself goes out and does service stuff together. Um, I, I think that's honestly how those elk lodges, [00:41:10] how all those places started, right? Yeah. It started with a group of guys together. I totally believe it together, and then found a mission and then for whatever reason we got away from those. And I think now we're trying to build 'em back up. I think it would be [00:41:20] so wonderful. If we could get a few of those groups with all their wisdom around that service to really be able to connect with young guys and broaden some of that gap. So if you're [00:41:30] listening to this and you have any exposure to that and you have any experience with that, please share it in the comments for us. Mm-hmm. We wanna help some people find this, and Jason and I don't have experience with it, so yours could really help [00:41:40] out some folks if you can share it a hundred percent. Let's transition into you, man, like you've got this really powerful story you've watched at this point. I'm guessing hundreds of men kind of [00:41:50] transitioned through themselves, through the various groups you've been involved in and led. How has leading all of this shaped your understanding of masculinity, leadership, and community? Yeah. You know, a [00:42:00] couple of things. One, for me, it ended up being a life hack. And what I mean by that is the moment I started leading it quickly became apparent to be in integrity. I had to [00:42:10] take better care of myself physically, mentally, emotionally, being part of my own groups, my own therapy, my own coaching. You know, it was like, okay, I can't. Tell [00:42:20] guys or create spaces for guys if I'm not doing it myself. And it actually helps me quite a bit knowing, okay, if I'm gonna tell some guy to be doing some kind of embodiment practice, I gotta be doing [00:42:30] one every day. If I'm telling a guy about the value of a men's group, I gotta be showing up to mine, my peer group where I'm not leading it. I am sometimes being led and where I'm getting support and services. [00:42:40] So it's been great to hold me to the fire in terms of that. And then it's just taught me so much. You know, like I said, I'm kind of more of a nice, so-called nice guy. I work a lot with Dr. [00:42:50] Glover and to lead a group successfully, I've really had to build my capacity to set healthy boundaries, to interrupt people, to be willing to kind of come in with some [00:43:00] strong direction, which isn't force, but strong direction that can guide men and to. You know, be willing to bring that discernment online if, if something's not [00:43:10] being, something's not working in terms of a group or something like that. So I've learned so much about my own leadership in a sense, and probably more than anything else I've learned that just, [00:43:20] uh, the thing that often gets guys shown up to me in my groups is when they just hear my story of the groups I'm in. And, and the fact that I'm living it, you know, like this, [00:43:30] I, I don't, I don't teach it just because I teach it because it's what's moved the needle for me. And it really has taught me that I think the new currency of leadership that we're [00:43:40] all humans, but men in particular are being asked to step into is, is what I call flex flow, which is the recognition of who holds the depth [00:43:50] in any particular interaction. And that there is a time for healthy hierarchy. Yes. And what I mean by that is I will sit in my circle here in Colorado [00:44:00] with men, and there are areas where I hold the expertise in depth. And I will transmit that and I will be clear about that. It doesn't mean it's the only way, but there's like a clear [00:44:10] like, Hey, you know, I, I've, I've been through this. Here's what'll work, here's what I've seen work. Here's where I see you. Maybe not landing that so to speak, but that same man [00:44:20] I will be deferring to around other things, certain financial things or relationship things or whatnot. And that discernment and capability to have the flex flow in [00:44:30] terms of shared leadership that we're all growing together, leaning into our strengths, doing our best to shore up our weaknesses is, has been a total game changer for [00:44:40] me. And why I am particularly interested in, I think, men's groups and peer groups is, uh, I spent a lot of time kind of in the transformational spiritual world and you know, at this [00:44:50] point, name a community and you're gonna find the guru disciple who is fucking their students or stealing their money or, you know, there's just so many examples of what.[00:45:00] Goes wrong when one person is kind of seen as the, the guru, the, the, the answer to it all and how, you know, I get it. There's a. [00:45:10] There's a part of me that earns to find that person that's like, oh, you know, the way it works and you can, if I just follow you, life will be easy. Uh, but a good men's group kind of bursts that in some [00:45:20] sense, where it's like, yeah, I know you don't have all the answers. I don't have all the answers. And what I've particularly seen for a lot of men is even guys that had great fathers, no father can give every man [00:45:30] all the medicine he needs. But what I've seen a group. Be able to hold is this kind of meta masculine figure where every man has [00:45:40] some piece of the puzzle that is their gift they can bring towards the different facets of masculinity in a group. You know, Dr. Glover puts it, it's like the Swiss cheese [00:45:50] thing can plug the hole in a way, no single person can. And I've experienced that, right? Where some guys give me their body wisdom. Some guys it's their spiritual wisdom. Some guys, it's [00:46:00] like their investment wisdom where I'm like, oh my God, I have no idea where to even start here. And they're like, yeah, here. Here you go. Here's some guidance. And then I'm bringing my own gifts and that recognition of [00:46:10] that, no one person has it all figured out. That lights me up and has totally changed things for me. 'cause now I'm part of a web in a network and it keeps growing. [00:46:20] And so if I hit. An an edge or some someplace I struggle. I know there's somebody in my network now who has the, the, the medicine I [00:46:30] need. And that is so relaxing and I don't expect to get it all from one group or one person, but it's like, okay, this is a lifestyle I'm now part of. And [00:46:40] leading groups and seeing that come alive for other men as well where they're like, ah, you know, the simple thing I I talk to so many men about is, oh, I don't have to do everything alone. I can ask [00:46:50] for help. Just that alone totally transforms most men's lives and totally transform mine. Yeah, I think that like that 1950s story that your entire [00:47:00] community can be your spouse and your kids has done so much damage to the masculine ideal. Yes. Like you, uh, the first one to turn me [00:47:10] onto that was Sebastian Younger's Tribe on Homecoming and Belonging. That book. Yeah. And just talking about how impactful it is that hierarchy matters and. [00:47:20] You need different types of leadership and different types of skills during different types of things. And no one person, there is not a single person that is going to be able to step into [00:47:30] all of those roles and hold it together. And so I love that you speak to that. And it's been consistent. Like, uh, Kevin Peterson came on and talked about it with 12 Step, uh, [00:47:40] trees came on and talked about it just in couples, right? Like whose lane is, who's, who's leading now. It's so powerful to the piece of that as a [00:47:50] man because it allows you to own your lane. 'cause you know how to follow so you know how to lead a little bit. And then when it's not your lane, you're like, Hey man, hands off the wheel. What are we doing? What am I carrying? [00:48:00] It's fantastic. Absolutely. Yeah. It's been one of the, the joys for me to, and it keeps me in some sense, connected. [00:48:10] You know, if I'm always on my edge learning something new from someone or a different group, it reminds me what a lot of the guys coming to me are experiencing. Like, it can be scary. You don't know. [00:48:20] You feel stupid a lot. And that's just a normal part of the experience. And, uh, welcoming men into that is actually one of the fun things of like, Hey, no, you don't have to do it. Perfect. It's [00:48:30] okay to not know the answers. Like, we're doing a very different culture in this world and this work that you can step into when it just leaves so much more room for mentorship, right? Like so many young guys I work [00:48:40] with, there's this expectation that by 20 you're supposed to be really good at something. Yeah. I was trash at everything at 20. Totally. Right? That's how I got good at [00:48:50] some things was by being willing to go be trash and being willing to be led. Yes. And that, I think it goes back to that story, right? When you're in that fragile masculinity of having to be [00:49:00] perfect. You fail to learn, you can't, 'cause you can't let anybody in to critique you. Exactly. Yeah. Feedback is such an important part of how we grow and a healthy [00:49:10] ecosystem for that is part of what a great group or mentorship of any kind Right. Really can provide. And, and that, that's an important life stage. I think for a lot of [00:49:20] men that has kind of been eradicated, even, even in terms of just mentorship, right? Like the fact that, oh, I don't have to know it all. I can go study under someone who's gonna guide me through a [00:49:30] process. I mean now it's like Wild West launched into the worlds, be an entrepreneur being influenced, like you're doing everything by yourself oftentimes. And that's such a great [00:49:40] relief I get, uh, when, when I found those guy, those mentors for me. And then as I increasingly become one for other people of like, okay, great, like I wanna learn and I [00:49:50] dunno how to do it, so help me mess up and learn from it. You know? That's kind of it. I used to say the, um, how I kind of. The healthy father energy, whether it's our [00:50:00] biological father or not, is just a loving presence. That's, well, let's figure it out together, whatever the problem is. You messed up, you fell down, you blew, okay, well let's figure it out. [00:50:10] Okay, what, what happened? What can we do different? What did you learn from it? And just that loving presence, what goes back to that Swiss cheese idea? Like, uh, Eric Blammo, who's a really great trauma therapist and [00:50:20] couples therapists came on and talked about how, you know, that that father safety energy in the world is so important to have in multiple places and how healing that [00:50:30] can be for folks. Yes. And so I think we're really lucky to have you doing the work you do with groups and bringing that wisdom forward for guys. So I think this is just another opportunity to thank you for what you do [00:50:40] and thanks for bringing Oh, thank you. Yeah. You as well. Oh, sure. I do it one at a time, but we're getting there. Um. The, I, I like the pivot of this. So we just [00:50:50] asked you of like your big wisdom nuggets from all these years of doing all of this. Sure. And now I like this idea of bringing you back to like when you knew very little. Right? [00:51:00] Uh, uh, what's a truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12 that remains true today? Yeah. Honestly, the, the first one that came to [00:51:10] mind was a positive one. And it was, uh, it's okay to get excited about things Nice. Like just to have the things you love for no other reason than you love it, you know? [00:51:20] Uh, and a lot of my work I see, uh, this unfortunately happen to young boys and I had enough of it stoked. So that was one of, I didn't get a lot of threads from healthy masculine, but [00:51:30] it was one I got from my dad, which was recognizing certain things I was passionate about and then allowing for that and supporting that in a sense. 'cause [00:51:40] where I see all, you know, so much pain for men is, I call it the boy full flame. There's this like, joyful curiosity. So I mean, in any kid, but [00:51:50] particularly in boys and just story after story after story of the time dad came in, why do you ask so much, que so many questions because you just sit down [00:52:00] and like, boom, that's it. It's snuffed like it goes out. And this idea that it's worth me pursuing things I like just for the sake of, I don't know, my [00:52:10] curiosity and awe and passion. Uh, that was a gift I was given as a young man that I'm, I'm so grateful for and that it's actually one of my great joys now to get other men [00:52:20] reignited of like, you like that thing? That's great. Tell me all about it. Go do it. Talk about it. Get obsessed with it, right? Passion is attractive. You know, for [00:52:30] one thing, like to be super into something. You know, my, my wife, my, my favorite band's Pearl Jam. She doesn't give a shit about Pearl Jam. She comes because of what happens to me. [00:52:40] She likes seeing the experience. She won't go just for Eddie Veter. What is wrong with her? Yeah. No, but she likes seeing me come alive. Right. She sees how [00:52:50] passionate about, and to me, to her, that's so meaningful to see that fire inside of me that doesn't come out everywhere. Right. So, so joyful and innocent. And I [00:53:00] think we really need that as men. And that's one place where a lot of guys let the flame either from that trauma or they get married, they have kids, they have Jo, they let all that go, and then they wonder [00:53:10] why they just feel so dead inside. Well, and I think it's that layered culture of stoic expression that's expected. Right? Totally. Particularly in white culture, because we came from like [00:53:20] German and British roots. Yeah. Right. Where, and that is a, like those are stoic cultures. Right. Hold it together. Very. And I think [00:53:30] when we stepped into American culture and it became white culture, we lost the things that make that possible. Yeah, so true. And so it just became like a killjoy [00:53:40] instead of a like bearing. Yeah. So I'm so glad that your dad gave you that. 'cause you're right, so many guys I talked to, they get uncomfortable when they get joyous. They get uncomfortable when they [00:53:50] get passionate it, A friend of mine posted this and I can't remember I, I don't remember if it was her idea, but it made me laugh because it's one of the truest things I've ever heard in my life. She [00:54:00] was like, anytime a guy starts mansplaining to me, I just look at him like a 5-year-old being really excited to tell me about my hotware of cars and it changes the entire experience. That's [00:54:10] so great. What? That's so generous too, right? That is a generous woman. And I immediately responded with like, I'm so glad to hear that, because I swear to god half the time, if it's a social [00:54:20] situation, that's exactly what's happening. If it happens to me. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Like not at work, not in professional settings when there's expertise, but like when somebody's just [00:54:30] excited and spouting off at you, sometimes that's just like the little excited boy in them. So true. The next question that we, we've asked everybody is, uh, tell us a time when pursuing your man [00:54:40] had hurt you. When I first decided to pivot into this professionally, so I had been a filmmaker, I was doing some web development on the side. I had some steady clients, you know, [00:54:50] and then I kind of got the bug. And, you know, part of one of the shadows of men's work was the, okay, I'm gonna go all in. I'm gonna burn all the bridges. I'm gonna become a men's work leader and coach. [00:55:00] And so I let go of all my steady work. And I was like, I'm just, I'm going in and I quickly racked up like 45 grand in debt [00:55:10] and could barely pay rent and was so stressed out and it really freaked out. My wife, she, it was before we had kids and she's like, what are we, how am I gonna do this? And it was such a [00:55:20] painful year and my stress responses to withdraw. So I'm like stressed about money and feeling shame that I can't make a living. And she's noticing it. And then we're [00:55:30] growing more distance and, you know, I was well versed in men's work and here I was doing the very thing of like disconnecting and trying to be super tough and show the thing.[00:55:40] And then, you know, partly through my groups and some conversations with her, it became really clear. Like, and, and now this is actually one of the things I champion for men that they don't necessarily always want [00:55:50] to hear is sometimes you gotta do both. Sometimes you gotta do your deepest passion, your purpose, the thing you love, and pay your bills, have to have a job that pays the bills to, to [00:56:00] bridge that gap. You know, maybe one time they'll merge, but oftentimes you want to, you have to do both. And I kind of had to learn a lesson in some sense of [00:56:10] the danger of kind of the Joseph Campbell Follow Your Bliss thing. You know, my generation behind was particularly sold from a young age. If you just do what you love and the money will [00:56:20] follow. And it wasn't quite that simple for me. So it's, you know, I learned a painful lesson for anybody like that myth is so, you're absolutely right. Our, our generation of guys were raised with [00:56:30] it. And it is a myth. Like we, I I like how, um, Scott Galloway puts it of like, people keep trying to turn hobbies into jobs, right? Yeah, exactly. And sometimes you [00:56:40] can, like you and I are lucky, we, we've found a way to bring our passion into our work, and that's wonderful. But so many guys I work with, their happiness comes from having a provider [00:56:50] job. Yeah. And their passion and that they've found a way to be in the provider job that leaves room for their passion. Mm-hmm. And I think people need to [00:57:00] stop negating that as like not a valid way to be. And it creates so much more space for us as men, I have found. 'cause there is so much pressure, particularly in [00:57:10] men's work around Yeah. Like, you gotta do it this way. And if you're not, if how you're making money isn't aligned to your deepest purpose, like, you know, there's all these problems and it turns [00:57:20] out your deepest purpose may have nothing to do with how you make money. And that's a big mindset shift. It's like, oh, that might be the fuel that allows you. To burn this [00:57:30] fire, you know, to do the thing, to do the surface work, to create the art to whatever. And, you know, it was a hard journey I had to make. And um, now, you know, I see a lot of men really [00:57:40] caught in that painful trap. And it creates, it creates a lot of challenge for particularly young people where they're like, oh, this is my deepest purpose. It doesn't feel meaningful, so I'm not gonna do it. And then they don't accumulate skills [00:57:50] and form any kind of mastery, which then makes you less viable in the workplace. And then, yeah, all kinds of stuff gets, you know, tied into that, around our masculinity, right or wrong. And so [00:58:00] just adding complexity to that conversation and experiencing it on my own of then having to go back and get some stable work and build my business [00:58:10] simultaneously was a, a hard lesson I had to learn. That was quite painful for my wife, for me, for my bank account. Took me years to, you know, get back to zero and now I'm pretty [00:58:20] passionate around. Okay. You know, yes. You just might have to do both. I would say. You should do both in most cases. Yeah. It's not even, you might have to, I think you, [00:58:30] most people should, I do a lot of business coaching for private practice. Ah, yeah. And folks coming out of the community health world, and they're all scared to, and I'm like, well, you don't do it all at once.[00:58:40] You start a Saturday practice and then maybe you go to four tens at work and then do your practice. Mm-hmm. Until you're ready, until you've got enough of a, a foothold that you can pay your bills. I, I [00:58:50] think I, I always like coming out on the high note. Right. Uh, sure. Tell us about a time when pursuing your manhood empowered you. You know, I'm just gonna share a particular moment. I was leading a [00:59:00] retreat a couple years ago and, uh, led a really deep practice. I had been on a bunch of podcasts that I, I do with a friend of mine, and this guy had come because of, I [00:59:10] had shared my story about my family and being, you know, German, stoic, kind of locked up, no sense of interiority, numb, really uncomfortable, totally [00:59:20] terrified of talking to women, just frozen like a, a boy frozen in my body for decades. And we did this deep practice and he, uh, he, he came up at the, at the end of the [00:59:30] session and he's like, can we talk? And I could tell his, like, heart was ready to burst, and we just went to the side of this little yurt we were working on and sat down and he just kind [00:59:40] of like opened, he just fully opened to how hard it had been and how lonely he had been and how stuck inside himself he had been. And he was just crying and in [00:59:50] tears. There was just so much similarity between our family systems. I just, I just got it. I was like, yeah, man, I, I totally get it. And he's like, I know you get it. That's why I'm here. [01:00:00] And, you know, there was just that moment of sharing that and feeling what a outrageously courageous act it was in terms of going against [01:00:10] all the karma of his family system to approach me like that, the leader of the training and all this stuff, and to just ask for some attention and help. To me that was like, okay, [01:00:20] whatever's happening here, I'm on track. Like, this is what I want to be happening in the world. 'cause that's what I, you know, was dying for in my life. And so I'm so grateful to whenever I [01:00:30] can be a version of that to the men who it, it lines up with. And, uh, you know, he, he's gone on to do some of my programs and just incredible guy Totally transformed his life.[01:00:40] Well, and it goes back to that mentorship, right? I think. Mm-hmm. Men need mentorship because our roles are so ill-defined. That if you [01:00:50] don't see somebody where you wanna be, that you can relate to where they've been, it's really hard to believe you can get there. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a, probably another, [01:01:00] just weaving all this together. Big learning for me was for a long time, even early as a, as a coach in the men's workspace. I would get really hard on myself and comparing [01:01:10] myself to other coaches and what they could do. And they had had these corporate jobs and made a lot of money and then, you know, had all these relationships, but it fell hollow. So they had to go [01:01:20] inside. And I was like, ah, you know, I, that was never my experience. I was like a late blooming virgin, had a hard time, didn't make a lot of money, uh, you know, had passions, but, and [01:01:30] anyway, that's the very, the more I just share that now, Hey, here's where I was and it was brutal. Here's what got me to where I am. It's better. That's what attracts the right guys. And so men's [01:01:40] group, what I love about that, what I teach men is again, the service component is when you start to share your inner world and your pain and you be vulnerable and you are [01:01:50] courageous to, to go to those places or bring those things forward in your life, you don't wanna look at or never had the tools for, you're not just doing it for yourself. The second you do that, you are. [01:02:00] Creating a field of permission that allows other men to step in and they get inspired by it. I see it every time I do these deep groups, you know, man, when I saw so and [01:02:10] so, just when I saw how vulnerable and real you were about what happened with your wife, that's what gave me the belief in myself that I could do this right now and here I go and it, it'll knock something [01:02:20] in me or something with my dad. And so it's just, you know, the real beauty to growing in community like we've been talking about, that our work is someone else's work and someone else's work [01:02:30] is often the key to our work. And as a leader, I get to experience that too. You know, I, I talk to my guys, like, when we're sitting together, you know, I'm sure you see this with your clients too, in a [01:02:40] way. It's, we're both getting something out of it. Mm-hmm. It's, it's for mutual freedom. I become more free every time I work with a guy. 'cause I learn something about myself as a leader, as a [01:02:50] man, as a coach, you know? Um, so that's one of the great joys of, you know, being in this world well and being connected. By the masculinity to the [01:03:00] masculinity, it's lets you see so much more of yourself in the world. So with all of that, right, you've shared all these wonderful experiences with the groups you've ran and your education content. [01:03:10] Where should people look for you? Like if they wanted to hear more from you, if they wanted some of your guidance on how to do these things, or would they find you? Yeah, yeah. Best way to keep up with me is at my website, which is [01:03:20] evolutionary.men. So not.com, but evolutionary.men. And you can read my writing, see my programs, listen to my podcast, all my appearances like this will be [01:03:30] on there. So, you know, if you're getting a hit and you're like, yeah, I want a little bit more of that, there's tons of that there. I do have trainings on, you know, shadow work and men's groups. Uh, and for men's groups in particular, what [01:03:40] I'll say is, um, you don't have to work with me. Like I'm pretty well networked at this point. So if you're like, yeah, I wanna find a group, I don't know where to start. Certainly I have things I can offer you, [01:03:50] but I will, I, I'm quite passionate about helping men find stuff in their local area. So even if you just hit the contact button, you're like, Hey man, I'm in Atlanta. What's around? Um, I, I can point you to [01:04:00] some stuff and I, my network of other men doing this is growing meeting guys like you as well, um, day by day. So reach out, like you do not have to do this stuff alone. There's never [01:04:10] been a better moment to find a group than right now. Like there is a swell happening and it's needed and necessary and you just gotta take that first step and reach out to [01:04:20] someone. Yeah. I, I have that happen so often. Just locally, my network doesn't expand past Colorado very well, but I always encourage everybody I know like, no, no. Like if somebody's looking for a [01:04:30] therapist, give 'em my number and it's not 'cause they're gonna work with me most of the time it's because I'm gonna help 'em like find a good therapist. 'cause just like anything else, there's good and there's bad [01:04:40] and it's so much easier to navigate when you have an inside source. I'm so glad you're willing to do that for guys. That's a wonderful thing to offer. Yeah. A hundred percent my, my joy. Well man, thanks so much for coming on. I think we're, uh, [01:04:50] I think we're gonna help a lot of guys start some things. Yeah, my pleasure. And thanks so much for creating the space. It's so needed, and that's our conversation with Jason. I'm so happy to have met him, and I'm so glad that he's in [01:05:00] the space doing the work he does. I think he's really helping a lot of men out, and I hope his insights helped you. As we talk about in every episode, we take a look at what information we're giving you and make sure it's as correct as we can.[01:05:10] In this episode, we only found a small thing to correct. Jason talked a little bit about hormones and the differences between men and women, the hormones he was citing. All that research is currently on mammals. There's [01:05:20] not a lot of information about humans yet. While that's really insightful and probably going to impact us, it's important for you to know that that's still emerging science. Now, let's bring it back to you. I asked you at the beginning of the [01:05:30] episode to think about the kinds of men you would wanna see in your men's group. Now that you've thought about that, I want you to reflect on who you. Want to be in your men's group? What kind of man do you wanna be? As you show up to [01:05:40] that, do me a favor and either leave me a comment, send me a message, or fill out the survey letting me know whether you're gonna start or join, and if it's a comment, [01:05:50] tell me a little bit about what you're looking for there. Let's help normalize this for guys. Thank you so much for listening. I'm so glad that you're here and starting these conversations in your world and hopefully taking actionable [01:06:00] steps. Remember, as Mark Manson says, A smart man's procrastination is overthinking. Don't be that guy. Take what you learned here. Go find somewhere to join or go build something that's gonna be [01:06:10] worthwhile for you. I look forward to hearing about your perspective on it. Thank you so much for taking the time to share it. We'll see you next week on episode 16 where we talk to an expert about dyslexia [01:06:20] and why so many guys slip through the cracks with it. I'll see you [01:06:30] there.