[00:00:00] We can't look back at our history with the morality of today and expect to see good and bad people. Unless you know everything about a person, you really don't know anything about a person. [00:00:10] That's the hard part with these stories, right, is we want to use them to bring together, but we can't let it gloss so much. History books are usually written by the winners. Every event in history has multiple points of [00:00:20] view. What happens when we stop trying to split our story into good and bad? And start trying to tell the whole story, who teaches us which parts to be proud of and which parts to bury. If you're looking for the answers to those [00:00:30] questions, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winkey. This is American Masculinity, and on our 17th episode, we're bringing on Dr. Danny Brazel. Danny's a great guy and I was really excited to have him on because he's a [00:00:40] master storyteller. He's taught hundreds of people everywhere from public schools in Compton, to universities, to businesses. He's got 19 books published on [00:00:50] storytelling, and so who better to help tell complicated stories of our history than him. I was really looking forward to getting an hour with him to be able to give you all a framework to be able to lay everything [00:01:00] out so that way we can go through our own stories and you can take these tools and go forward. That didn't happen. Unsurprisingly, my family's story's complicated. My story's [00:01:10] complicated. There's good and bad in it, and Danny was kind enough to go through that with me and to share some of his, but we didn't get to a frame and we didn't get to a complete answer in an hour. I still [00:01:20] think it's worth watching though. If you're someone who struggles with the duality of your existence and your family and your history, and particularly our history as a country, you understand the [00:01:30] struggle too. And maybe by watching us talk about it and go through some of it, it'll help you figure out yours while you're watching. Please take a look at your own story [00:01:40] and figure out what those pain points are and what those pride points are. Start figuring out how you've been telling that story in your mind as two different stories. I'll see you at the end.[00:01:50] Hey Danny, thanks for coming on and thanks so much for the conversation before we [00:02:00] got started, man. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed that. And Tim, thanks so much for all that you do. We need a lot more of you. Uh, you're, you're, you're on a very noble mission, my friend. I was [00:02:10] really intrigued by your storytelling and how you help guys tell their story. In the positive, but also acknowledging the pain along the way. Can [00:02:20] you tell people a little bit about your history and how you became the guy that teaches people how to tell stories? Yeah. I mean, if I was gonna write an autobiography, it would be called Pivots because I feel like I've already lived nine lives, [00:02:30] uh, 30 years ago I was a journalist, I had a great job. I got to cover President Bush Sr in the 1992 presidential election, and I got to meet every editor of every major [00:02:40] daily. And one ed editor, uh, offered me the city beat for $16,500 a year. Meanwhile, a friend told me they were hiring teachers in South Central Los Angeles [00:02:50] in the, in the inner city for $25,000 a year. So I became an educator for the noble list of reasons, Tim, for the, for the high pay. And I actually [00:03:00] fell in love with teaching. I've taught all age levels from preschoolers all the way up to rocket scientists. I can make that claim. Because I used to teach English as a second language to engineering students at the [00:03:10] University of Southern California. And back in 2005, my uh, wife and I, we attended a real estate seminar, which turned out to be a scam. And I lost [00:03:20] everything overnight. And I could give you the woe is me story, but I'm a positive person. I like to share the positive lessons I learned. First of all, my wife is my soulmate. I put her through the ringer and [00:03:30] she stood right by me. She's an incredible human being. Second of all, I learned that money's not everything and you can lose it just like that, which, uh, was an important lesson. [00:03:40] Third, I try not to judge other people anymore because if I was somebody who saw what I had done, I'd say, well, you deserve that. But now I realize, unless you know everything [00:03:50] about a person, you really don't know anything about a person. Fourth, I became a Christian, which I'm always embarrassed to admit, but the more I read the Bible, I'm not the first screw up to find Jesus. And fifth, I [00:04:00] didn't want to file for bankruptcy, and my accountant said, well, you have to make this much more money this year. And so I started speaking on the side. I was a professor at the time, and I [00:04:10] hit the number right on the number. Well, the next year, Tim, he gave me a much higher number and I hit that number right on the number. And so basically in year three, I thought, well, maybe I should set a higher [00:04:20] number. And so during one of the worst economic downturns in American history, I was able to really build up a, a highly lucrative speaking, uh, business, which attracted, uh, the [00:04:30] attention of a lot of people who wanted me to coach them. And I resisted coaching Tim, because as a teacher, I've always been obsessive compulsive. It's actually the reason I had to [00:04:40] leave teaching. I have a very high standard for my students, and I won't let them fail. I'll actually hold you accountable until you succeed. Well, now that I work primarily with entrepreneurs [00:04:50] and business owners and C-suite executives, I find that they're highly motivated. They do the work. It's been really one of the most gratifying things I've ever done. So that's a very long answer to your short question. [00:05:00] Uh, but that's my story of, uh, uh, wearing lots of different, uh, faces throughout my, my lifetime. I love the teaching connection to storytelling. Like the, uh, [00:05:10] the big thing that I learned is I wasn't a reader as a kid. I had a reading disability, and so I learned through stories. I would make teachers tell me stories. And so [00:05:20] now that I'm a college professor, all the best theories, all the best knowledge, if you can't attach it to a story, the students don't remember it anyway. It doesn't have any meaning. Yeah, that, I mean, [00:05:30] that's, that's absolutely true, Tim. I mean, I was on a Christian podcast recently and you can go to the Bible and, uh, the Bible. I'm [00:05:40] one of the only people I know that just always laughs when I'm reading the Bible. Just 'cause Jesus cracks me up. He's so frustrated with the apostles all the time. He's like, okay, you dense people here. Let me give you a story about two sons. [00:05:50] One of 'em is a prodigal son, you know, oh, here's the story of David and Goliath, and I bet you people around the world know those stories. And yet I also bet you [00:06:00] that nine outta 10 Christians cannot tell you all 10 commandments. And the reason is they were presented as a list, not as a story. People remember stories, they don't remember [00:06:10] bullet points. And that's why I always tell people don't, don't just sit there and rely on your PowerPoint. There's, I've never had a person six months after one of my talks say, oh, you know what was great about your talk, [00:06:20] Danny? Was that one PowerPoint slide with 18 bullet points that I couldn't read. 'cause the font was so small. I've never had a person say that, ever. But they remember stories. And that's the power of storytelling that [00:06:30] you were alluding to. Yeah. I always like for slides, it's always either some kind of graphical thing or three sentences and that's it. It's a good, it's a good policy. I, I think [00:06:40] that kind of ties into what I was hoping you'd come on and talk about today. Like we, because of kind of the political discourse, there isn't one. Yeah. And [00:06:50] like we were talking about before, the, the moderate to liberal guys I work with that are white guys with our history of America, they feel incredibly guilty. They feel incredibly [00:07:00] stifled, and they don't have a lot of places to go talk to anybody about it because the other people around don't want to hear about how a white guy feels bad, that our people hurt [00:07:10] people. And then on the other end, when I talk to my conservative guys, they're so locked in against the kind of liberal narrative of just how bad America [00:07:20] can be. That they won't see it, they won't see the pain, and then they lose empathy for the people that we ran over. Yeah. What kind of conflicts are you seeing as guys try to tell [00:07:30] those in public or with their kids? Yeah, when I, I mean, I was first hired as a, uh, high school social studies teacher, history teacher, and the first lesson I like to teach [00:07:40] my class is history. Books are usually written by the winners. Every event in history has multiple points of view. And my job as your teacher is not to tell you what to think, it's to teach [00:07:50] you how to think. And, uh, you hit the nail on the head. I think it's, uh, it's a real shame that we're not having productive political discourse in this country. It's all [00:08:00] right to disagree. You can, you can, my wife and I disagree all the time, but it doesn't mean we're disrespectful of one another USA today, I don't know if they still, uh, do it, but they used to [00:08:10] have a, a, a column once a week, and it was these two Washington operatives. One was a hardcore democratic strategist, the other one was a hardcore Republican [00:08:20] strategist, and they'd give them an issue. And they would talk about their own points of view, and then they'd figure out, well, where's the, uh, common ground? I had actually pitched a show in Los Angeles 30 [00:08:30] years ago to, am I gonna say, I'm not gonna say the studio that negated it, but the, the show was gonna be called Common Ground. And I was gonna play a bartender, and each week I'd have a Republican and [00:08:40] a Democratic, uh, elected official on. And uh, we'd say like, this week is healthcare. And the, the Democrat would have Hi, have his five minutes of speaking his piece, and the [00:08:50] Republican would have his five minutes of speaking his piece, and we'd all share libation. But then the rest of the show we figured out, well, where's the common ground? Let's get something done. I mean, I love this [00:09:00] country and, uh, we are not a perfect country. Men are not perfect. I've yet to meet a perfect human being. But that's what makes us interesting. It's, [00:09:10] especially when I was teaching English as a second language, a lot of my foreign students, they were ashamed of their accents. I'm like, but accents. That's the spice, that's the flavor. I lo, I mean, [00:09:20] plus when I was in California, we used to have a governor who had a pretty thick accent. He did pretty, he did pretty well for himself. I'll be back. I, I think those are, those are great. And I, I, I [00:09:30] embrace the differences. It actually really, uh, it breaks my heart that people can't have those types of discussions. And that's why it's even more important to have podcasts like yours where we [00:09:40] can talk about these things. And if people disagree with me, great. We, but be respectful of one another. This kind of ties back into your point earlier about just a list of facts and how people that doesn't [00:09:50] move people. Yeah. And the best frame I've heard for it, and I can't remember who I'm stealing this from, but I'm 100% sure I did not come up with this idea, is we [00:10:00] stopped being able to even agree on what is happening. Yeah. Much than if we can't even agree on what is happening. There's no discussion on what to do about it. There's no more [00:10:10] policy talk if we can't agree on what we're trying to make policy around. Yeah, that's a, that's an important point, is you can't disagree about the facts, but now people are in disagreement about what the actual [00:10:20] facts are and that's, that's a problem. That's where I see a lot of the, like I tend to lean liberal, right? So I'm, it's easier for me to be critical of the conservative, [00:10:30] you know, fact differential. But I'm lucky enough that I work with really bright, competent guys that are conservative. Mm-hmm. And that hold, like, they [00:10:40] think things are true that I absolutely know are not, but we don't believe where we get our information from. Right. What that ends up doing though, is if we just get into the facts and we don't figure out a way to tell the [00:10:50] story, we never get back together. We never get to move anything. We're just in conflict constantly. Yeah. I think it's really important to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, [00:11:00] but before you judge people, maybe you try to wear their shoes, walk in their shoes for a day. I mean, uh, I love it when people talk, oh, I'm going, I'm doing something cultural tonight. I'm going to the [00:11:10] opera. I'm like, well. That's one cultural activity. But going to a monster truck pool, that's also cultural. That's also cultural. It's a different, it's also, it's a different type of culture, but it's, I [00:11:20] mean, it is a cultural event and uh, it's of all people. It was the, uh, it was the Barat sequel where, uh, Sasha Baron Cohen disguised himself as this hardcore [00:11:30] conservative. But what was interesting is he was trying to make fun of the people, but in another light, he was also endear. He found the people endearing 'cause they were so [00:11:40] nice to, I mean, that's really important is, I mean, when I taught in the inner city, I went there thinking, oh, I'm gonna be the great white hope I'm gonna teach 'em so much. And it was ridiculous. I learned so much [00:11:50] more from my African American Latino students and colleagues, and I was like, huh, I, I have a post-it on my desk, Tim. It's the best thing I have. I just wrote this [00:12:00] question, what if I'm wrong? I ask myself that all the time. I mean, the older I get, the more I realize I really don't know that much. Everybody has, uh, different points of view and. You know, [00:12:10] maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. It's, I'm, I'm gonna stay open-minded. Well, I think that's where storytelling on these topics get so important, because the minute it [00:12:20] gets to who's right or wrong, you're not changing anybody's mind most of the time. Mm-hmm. One of the things that I really like to frame it as is their normal isn't your normal, and that's not a, that is [00:12:30] neither a good or a bad thing. That's just how humanity works. And the more other people's normals you experience, the more you can see the parts of yours that [00:12:40] maybe need to change. Maybe they shift your views. Maybe you, you know, travel is a great ignorance killer, but it also makes you really able to celebrate the parts of your normal that are wonderful. Like [00:12:50] the, the story I used in a, in a previous episode was, um, Christmas dinner, right? Mm-hmm. My family has ham, my buddy's family had Turkey. I didn't understand why we had Thanksgiving food on Christmas, [00:13:00] right? And I go back and I'm talking to my grandparents about it and they're like, oh, that's, it's a German thing. We have ham. And my whole life. Ham was just normal and it was a [00:13:10] white thing, not a German thing. And if I hadn't have been over that buddy's house and I hadn't had Turkey, I would've never thought to ask the question. Within these stories and these questions running around, how do you help the [00:13:20] guys hold both of those things together? The pride of what their family, what the country does, but also the pain of the missteps and sometimes the [00:13:30] absolute destruction it took to build the things that we built. Yeah, I see that tug of war all the time, especially with guys. I mean, if you look at like, all you have to do is look at [00:13:40] sitcoms in the 19, I think President Bush Sr. Had talked about this. If you look at the 1950s, the fathers on TV shows were like Ward Cleaver. And uh, you know, [00:13:50] father knows best and he always gave the wisdom and there's the moral, and we all go home feeling better. And, uh, today our male role models are Homer Simpson. He's a [00:14:00] doofus. He's always screwing things up. And uh, you know, uh, we have this tug of war between being. The man's man. You know, I'm like the most useless fixer upper [00:14:10] person. I'm not handy at all. My wife, she's the one that's handy. We go to Home Depot and it cracks me up because the, the Home Depot employees always talk to me and she's like, when he doesn't know anything, [00:14:20] talk to me. And then we go to parent teacher, teacher conferences, and the teacher always talks to my wife. I'm like, she doesn't know anything. Talk to me. We've kind of switched those, uh, those traditional roles. So there's, [00:14:30] there's the guy that is supposed to be macho and let's have a beer and talk about the game. But then there's also the guy that I have to have my emotional, I have to have my emotions [00:14:40] on my sleeve and show that I'm sensitive and things like this. And we, we, we see this tension all the time. And you can see it in storytelling, I think more than anything, because I'm a little [00:14:50] bit different than a lot of coaches. Uh, a lot of coaches will tell you, oh, when you're creating your. I call it a well-crafted story. I've heard people call it a signature talk. Uh, when I [00:15:00] covered the president, he would've called it his stump speech. In superhero movies, you'd call it the origin story. You can call it peanut butter and jelly. What this is, is this is a speech you're gonna deliver again and again [00:15:10] to introduce yourself to new people. And one of the companies I used to work for, um, which was probably the biggest, uh, training company on the planet for [00:15:20] executives, they, they would teach, we would teach executives. You'd have to talk about your most traumatic story. And I, I don't believe in that. I, I believe [00:15:30] in, in laughing a little bit, but I also see that tension nowadays. You can't tell a joke anymore. Somebody's always waiting to be offended. And I see so many guys that just, [00:15:40] uh, I, I feel like Americans, men are starting to become like British guys. British guys are always, uh, afraid of saying the wrong thing. Oh, how are you? Only to find out that. [00:15:50] Their mother died this morning. And, uh Oh, nice weather. Yes. Uh, uh, but my, my family's boat sank because of this weather, and we lost three children. I mean, it's [00:16:00] always, am I gonna say the wrong thing? Uh, am I even relevant? And what's heartbreaking to me is, is what we've been talking about, is [00:16:10] then people don't share at all. 'cause people feel like they're gonna offend people. And I, I think that's a real shame, uh, on society that we need to share those stories. And [00:16:20] if I, if I can give one, uh, strategy for everybody listening right now when you're speaking, the biggest mistake I see most people make [00:16:30] is they brag throughout their presentation. I'm, I'm gonna suggest do exactly the opposite. Stop sharing your successes, start sharing your failures, because not everybody in your [00:16:40] audience has succeeded, but they've all failed. And the more you talk about your own failures, your audience is gonna see themselves in you. And that's where you get powerful connection is when the [00:16:50] audience can see themselves in you. My company, well-crafted story workshop, my, my business partner, uh, coach Jimmy and I, that's one of the first things we, we teach people is, [00:17:00] Hey, in order to connect with your audience, you gotta do three things. Now I'm a former teacher, so everything's got that is either alliteration or it's a, it rhymes. And so I say, you gotta [00:17:10] wrap, you gotta show you're relatable. You gotta establish your authority and you have to show the audience your purpose. So relatable is showing the audience, Hey, I'm just like you. [00:17:20] I've had the problem that you've had. Authority is, I've had that problem and I solved that problem. And then the purpose is, hey, and [00:17:30] now I'm on a mission to do this and this and this to help people who've had that problem before. And if you can do those things in the first. Five minutes of the talk, you're gonna see that you're gonna have a [00:17:40] much higher conversion rate for your audience in terms of what you audience, what you want the audience to do next. And that's, that's the only way I ever measure the effectiveness of a talk. I mean, some people [00:17:50] say, oh, you're a great speaker. Well that's great. Uh, hey, you got a standing ovation. Well, that's great, but the only way I measure your effectiveness is how many people in your audience decided to take the next [00:18:00] step. Now, the next step can be an unpaid next step. Like, subscribe to my podcast or book a free call. It can be a, uh, a paid next step, like, buy my product [00:18:10] or invest in my coaching program. But that's the only way we're gonna actually determine your effectiveness on stage. I mean, if I'm working with a politician, the effectiveness is did people vote for you or did they [00:18:20] not vote for you? Uh, or actually politicians have two very distinct audiences that one, one speech they're giving is to get votes. The other one is to get money to donate to their campaign. [00:18:30] Uh, if I'm working with a pastor, uh, we're judging your effectiveness in two different ways. How many people did you convert? And how much, uh, money did you bring in for your tithing, uh, [00:18:40] business people? Obviously it's how many customers do you have? Uh, so that that's how we're gonna actually measure your effectiveness. And guys are, are, are it, it's crazy how [00:18:50] you have this, uh, this pull for guys right now. They have no idea what to say. And so that's why it's even more important for things like your podcast to really encourage guys, [00:19:00] hey, share your stories. Your story matters. Well, I like the starting with the failure point on some of this because I think what always makes sense to me when I'm spending time in liberal circles and [00:19:10] moving through there, I look like who hurt people, right? This is the face that hurts most of the people that get hurt in this country. And so if I don't do [00:19:20] anything fairly quickly to cue them into Tim, instead of the white guy that's big with the beard in front of him, there's a hesitancy. There's [00:19:30] a criticalness of them waiting for a mistake from me because they have to be, they don't know who I am. They've gotta defend themselves, Uhhuh. And so I love the idea of starting with a failure. I think [00:19:40] where I certainly go wrong with it, and a lot of my clients go wrong with it, is they go the other way rather than beginning braggadocious, they just get too self detrimental. Mm-hmm. Like, they're just, you know, [00:19:50] I'm such a piece. Oh my gosh, look at how bad of a guy I am. I'm so glad I'm here with all of you. All that ends up doing is put you away from them. It lets you maybe share space, but you can't join [00:20:00] like that. Mm-hmm. No one wants to join with someone that, that, that is that ineffective. And I've worked with guys as young as 18 and I've never met the guy who [00:20:10] hasn't had a failure. They've overcome. Yeah. Ever. You can always put that into, it shows the imperfection, but it also shows that you're willing to grow, that you're willing to learn, you're willing to listen. Absolutely. [00:20:20] Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, all of us have made, I mean, this is actually one of the things. I'm working with people here. So here's an exercise I do with clients is, uh mm-hmm. For your [00:20:30] audience right now. Uh, later on, get a pen and paper. Sit in a comfortable chair with a libation of choice. And for an hour, I want you to just write down every story that's ever [00:20:40] happened to you. And I don't mean the entire story, I just mean triggers, like the time I lock myself out of the car in front of Costco, the time dad spill mustard on his tie at that fancy restaurant. You'll find [00:20:50] in an hour you can come up with like 500 triggers of stories like this. So that's the first part of the exercise. The second part of the exercise is then I want you to think about carefully. What's this story [00:21:00] really about? Oh, this is a story about never giving up. Oh, this is a story about trustworthiness. Oh, this is a story about love. And so on my [00:21:10] computer, I have hundreds of files with thousands, if not tens of thousands of stories to connect with audiences on. And the the biggest misnomer people think you have to have [00:21:20] these extraordinary stories. And again, I'm gonna suggest it's exactly the opposite. I'm working with a gentleman right now in from Saudi Arabia. He's climbed [00:21:30] the, the highest peak on all seven continents. He did the Iditarod to the North Pole. He swam with sharks in Madagascar. I look at him, I'm like, nobody in your audience can relate [00:21:40] to you. Nobody has climbed Mount Everest. You have, you know, but everybody peed their pants in first grade. That's a good story. Everybody's gotten in a silly argument with [00:21:50] their spouse. Everybody felt, uh, completely, uh, embarrassed at their middle school dance. When guys share these stories, I'm like, no, no, no. [00:22:00] This is the way to connect with people. You connect with the everyday stories, not with these extraordinary stories. I mean, I was working with a politician the other day, and I, I was given a hard [00:22:10] time. I said, you ever notice no presidential candidate ever grew up middle class? They all grew up in a log cabin because they have to demonstrate their struggle to get to [00:22:20] the highest office in the land. People are interested. I mean, this is one of the things I actually like about American audience is we always support the underdog. It's kind of like the reason my [00:22:30] wife hates watching the Olympics with me. 'cause I usually root against America. And she's like, why are you rooting, why are you rooting against America? I'm like, honey, who am I gonna root for the American with the [00:22:40] microchip in his Nikes or the Barefoot Sudanese refugee who just survived a civil war and they just did a story on him. He's like, my name is Kofa and the way I [00:22:50] learned how to run was running away from the bullets in my village. I'm like, of course I'm rooting for that guy. It's the most amazing story ever. So it it's a story. It connected with me. I it this is the power of [00:23:00] storytelling of all people. It was Stalin who said, A million people dead is a statistic. One person dead is a tragedy. Translation, the facts tell, [00:23:10] but the stories sell. Facts inform. But stories transform is how can we develop stories that are gonna get our audience seeing themselves in you and, and see your [00:23:20] transformation and see themselves in that transformation. My family likes storytelling. I would say they, they really don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Irish. [00:23:30] I'm Irish. Yes. Yes. But one of the things that's been a struggle with that for me is that as I grow [00:23:40] older and as I learn more about my history, about my country's history, my story has to change. Hmm. So the, the example that I'll start with [00:23:50] here is in the military I did intelligence work. Mm-hmm. And my intelligence work led to the killing of some people I find truly morally [00:24:00] repugnant. Mm-hmm. And I have no problem having been connected with removing those people from the face of the earth. And when that was going on, anytime something like that would happen, [00:24:10] there was a celebration. We like, our work mattered. We got whoever this happened now, I think it was, it was after I got out that I started [00:24:20] really remembering and reflecting on that, they call it collateral casualties, but these guys were, you know, in apartment buildings with families around them. And sometimes it was a [00:24:30] missile. And so my work led to the death of families and both of those stories are true. I work a lot with clients on an individual level, on their [00:24:40] narrative for these things. But I don't know how to tell that story without either end of it, cheapening it. Right. If I, if I make the focus, the successful, [00:24:50] like our work mattered, we got these people that were doing very bad things. Or if I just make the whole story, the woe is me, my, my labor got co-opted into something. I wish it hadn't. [00:25:00] Neither of those stories are, I, I don't think they're worthy on their own. Yeah. Finding that balance. That's, that's an interesting point. I, I never thought of it that way, but I, I really do. Like, uh, [00:25:10] yeah. How do you incorporate the balance of both points of view into one, uh, one coherent story? Yeah. That's, and it's something, fortunately I never, uh, [00:25:20] I never served my brother. I mean, I'll give you a story. I was at a diner with my brother, my brother's a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force, and, uh, we were eating at a diner [00:25:30] and he was in uniform. And the waitress comes up and she's like, uh, uh, thank you, sir, for your service. We're gonna give you your meal for free. And I look at her, I'm like. Why don't you [00:25:40] thank me for my service? I'm a former public school teacher. I've had many more weapons drawn on me than he's ever had drawn on him. I was given that, that was my point of view, but that's interesting. I [00:25:50] never thought of it that way. Actually, I would love to craft that presentation, Tim, because I think there's a way, uh, 'cause to me a really good story. You, the narrative, there is an [00:26:00] arc. You talk about the highs, but there has to be a low in the second act. And then that leads to the renaissance in the third act, because you're right, I mean, to kill Osama bin Laden, there was probably, [00:26:10] uh, those casualties, you know, collateral damage that, uh, that was, uh, during World War ii when the, the Japanese, uh, kamikazes just started [00:26:20] going right at us. I was like, wow, how do you defeat an enemy like that? Or the, or even more recently, like a, a terrorist that's willing to blow himself up. I'm like, if they're willing to do that, that's a really [00:26:30] difficult enemy. And it's, uh, you look at the Vietnam when, uh, uh, a kid would be coming up to a soldier and the kid had a grenade in their hand and, uh. This is why I [00:26:40] love these types of conversations is listening to these points. There was a guy, um, a really great journalist back in the, uh, I think it was the eighties. Uh, it was Fred friendly and, uh, [00:26:50] he won like all these Peabody awards because he used to lead forums like this. He was a journalist. And so he would get a panel of, uh, it was, let's say the topic is, [00:27:00] uh, Vietnam. And so he'd get generals and then he'd get like social workers and journalists and all these different players, and he [00:27:10] would give them a scenario and they had to talk it through. And what I loved was he was giving everybody a chance to give their point of view. And that was really interesting, is [00:27:20] okay, here's the point of view from, I mean, I used to do that as a, you know, this about me. I, I like to, I like to challenge people. And so I, I, I used to, I [00:27:30] remember 30 years ago, I, I talked about the war in Iraq with a class. I'm like, uh. I'm like, did you know we lost over 5,000 troops in the Persian Gulf War? [00:27:40] And we would talk about that and um, for about 10 minutes we'd talk about it. And then, then I'd say, did you know that over a million civilians from Iraq died during the Persian [00:27:50] Gulf War? And I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but I am saying there is a point of view out there, and it's really important to try and see things. So I, I like that. I actually like that perspective. [00:28:00] Uh, I guess my, my job as a, uh, as a coach is to give you permission to tell those stories and say, Hey, maybe there is no [00:28:10] clear, you know, it's kind of like watching the movie Unforgiven. I always loved Unforgiven because Clint Eastwood, William money is the bad guy, but there's a [00:28:20] really a, a noble side to him. And Little Bill, gene Hackman the sheriff, he's the good guy, but he's a real jerk and he does a lot of questionable things. And [00:28:30] I love that movie 'cause I'm like, yeah. The good guys aren't always wearing the white hats and the bad guys aren't always wearing the black hats. Uh, life's a lot more complicated than that. There is no, uh, [00:28:40] there is no, uh, one or the other. There's a lot of gray areas, so I, I appreciate that you got me thinking. I like that. Tim, I'm, I need you as my professor. That's good. Well, so [00:28:50] the war is always tricky because the putting morality and war together always has failed. And we, [00:29:00] I think as a society keep convincing ourselves that we can go to war morally and no one has in the history of humanity perfectly. That's never gone entirely [00:29:10] well. Yeah, and, and so I guess for me, I always relate it to the, the greater humanity of the story. Like my experience with my conflicting feelings about [00:29:20] my service is not unique. I have a lot of pride in my service. It got me where I am. I did a lot of good things, and again, I was very lucky in that the work that I did, what, from what [00:29:30] I saw. I had no issue getting the people that were got. It was what, getting them cost that bothered me that I couldn't pay attention to while on that job. [00:29:40] I don't think you can survive in uniform with that dissidence happening at the same time. Like I kind of wanna connect that just to the kind of American like white guy's [00:29:50] story. I think of my grandfather a lot. So my grandfather was a very loving man. My, the men in my family. Uh, it was unfortunate that they were [00:30:00] guys of their time because they liked kids, right? Like I think in another world, my grandfather, my father and my uncle wouldn't have been as hardcore professional guys as [00:30:10] they want were, because they would've been happy being around a 4-year-old teaching 'em something. Hmm. And so my grandfather was very kind to me. He was very sweet to me. He was also a banker in the fifties, and so [00:30:20] I don't know what that looked like for him, but I do know that he succeeded in part because of redlining the policy of not letting black people into various neighborhoods. Yeah. [00:30:30] And. He passed before I ever got to have a conversation with him about this to find out what that looked like for him. But I have to hold that my family benefited from that. I can also say [00:30:40] that Maryland in College Park started busing when my dad and my uncle were school age. And what people don't always know about that is it caused one of the [00:30:50] greater instances of white flight in the nation. To that point when they said, we're gonna take a bunch of white kids from these affluent schools and put 'em in these black schools, parents moved. And I, I [00:31:00] never got to talk to my grandfather about why, but he didn't. He kept his sons where they were. He put 'em into the system. And I would love to think [00:31:10] that there was a good reason behind that, that he was trying to be anti-racist for the time that he existed. But I don't know. And so I think any person [00:31:20] who's been in America more than three generations, has a story like that. We can't look back at our history with the morality of today. And expect to see good and bad people. [00:31:30] But what do you tell guys struggling with those kinds of stories, those family stories, how do they help them frame those out? Well, you're right about that. I mean, using today's moral compass is [00:31:40] ridiculous on, on the past. I mean, my, my grandfather was a Brooklyn cop, 25 years. His, uh, partner and best friend was African American, and my grandfather used the N [00:31:50] word, but that's a Brooklyn cop, your grandfather that puts him what, in the fifties, forties? Where was he at? Yeah, yeah. In the fifties. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure he used worse [00:32:00] than that word. Absolutely. And, and, uh, I don't consider him a racist. I mean, uh, I mean, but it was a different time. I mean, there's one, it's kind of like what I talk [00:32:10] about with, uh, when you're crafting your speech with if you had some failures or whatever, whatever. This is where humor comes in handy is, is time is a healing [00:32:20] factor. I mean, it's one thing if you say you once were in prison. It's another thing if you say, I got out of prison yesterday. Well now the credibility, there's a [00:32:30] change here. I'm like, oh, I don't know what, what to think about this person. We were talking about it beforehand. One of my favorite comedies of all time for movies is Blazing [00:32:40] Saddles and a Mel Brooks film that there's no way they would make that movie and matter. Matter of fact, if you look at movies today, they don't even make comedies. People are are on eggshells [00:32:50] right now. 'cause they're like, oh, I'm gonna offend somebody. Somebody's gonna protest me or whatever. So it's a, that's a legitimate concern. I mean, I don't believe that that gives people the right to use the N [00:33:00] word. And, and I, there, you're right, there's these extremes right now where I'm like, my goodness, this is, this is crazy. But uh. Uh, this self-censorship that's, that, [00:33:10] that's actually killing us more than anything. I mean, well, I I think that comes from the fear though, right? Yeah, absolutely. So telling that story about my family mm-hmm. My grandfather was a man. I, I loved [00:33:20] deeply. Him and my grandmother were the reason why I had any security and a very insecure home, and they were incredibly dear to me. They were also fifties middle class [00:33:30] white people in the fifties. Mm-hmm. Their views are not informed, is the, like, the nice way to say it. Yeah. And [00:33:40] I, I think it's so hard to reckon with the truth of both of those that if you look back through your family history, you will see yourself, [00:33:50] you will see family members, you know, that's the point of a line. Which means that you'd see people that you could love, that you would find to be people doing [00:34:00] their best, to be a good person. Making terrible choices by today's standards. Yeah. And they were terrible. Then I wanna be really clear, like redlining was awful. Yeah. The fact that my [00:34:10] grandfather was a white guy doing that when a bunch of other white guys doing it doesn't change that. That was awful. But it does make it a little bit, I, I guess kind of like [00:34:20] my story about the military stuff, where that was the job, that was the mission we signed up to get these people, and at the time that is what the [00:34:30] leaders that we swore to obey and that our fellow citizens elected, decided was worth doing to get them. We could get, we could even go into like gender roles. I mean, look at the 1950s [00:34:40] for gender roles. I mean, uh, dad was at work, mom was at home. I mean, that was, I think it was probably, I don't have statistics offhand, but I, I would imagine it [00:34:50] was. That was the way it was in 99% of the households. Well it's because it was against the law for it to be otherwise at that point women still couldn't have bank accounts. Uh, yeah. But, and this is [00:35:00] where like patriarchy get the story of patriarchy gets interesting to me. Mm-hmm. Because we tend to throw it around talking about how it's hurt women. And it absolutely has. And that should be talked about, but we don't [00:35:10] talk about how it hurt men. And if we don't talk about how it hurt men, it's really hard as a guy to like care on an interpersonal inside level. Yeah. But my grandfather didn't get to be a dad [00:35:20] when I showed up as a grandkid and he was moving towards retirement. All of a sudden he gotta spend time with me. He wasn't a father to my father. He was a guy gone at work to [00:35:30] my father. And that's what that dynamic did. We removed dads from the equation and that is terribly costly. Yeah, I agree. So you've got a framework for people [00:35:40] to kind of help them tell their stories. Mm-hmm. Can you walk the audience through what that framework looks like and how they might use it? Absolutely, Tim. I mean, so again, [00:35:50] former teacher, so, uh, everything has to rhyme or it's gonna be alliteration. So, uh, coach Timmy and I, we call it the five Cs. And so the first C before you ever craft a [00:36:00] presentation, you need clarity. And so there's two questions you have to ask yourself. And if you can answer these questions, you're in pretty good shape. And if you can cannot answer one or both of the [00:36:10] questions, you're gonna have a tough time. I mean, and it's amazing to me. 95% of my clients cannot succinctly answer one or both of these questions. So the first question is, who was your [00:36:20] audience? So a lot of people say, my audience is everybody. I'm like, well, your, if your audience is everybody, your audience is nobody. You know that with your podcast, Tim is uh, uh, I I'm [00:36:30] sure that, uh, a, a podcast named American masculinity isn't like something all the feminists are listening to. Maybe they are. Uh, we'll see. Yeah, we'll, we'll [00:36:40] see. If they get the letters, they're welcome. Yes, exactly. And so I always tell people the best audience to start with is, uh, the audience that's closest to home. So, for example, [00:36:50] when I first started speaking, I was a teacher and so I felt very comfortable, uh, speaking to teachers. And then I expanded to parent groups and then I expanded to educational [00:37:00] administrations, administrators, and then I was very blessed. I was in a mastermind and there was a successful gentleman in my mastermind. Ran a, a very successful company, and he [00:37:10] asked me to train his sales force and to motivate his sales force. And I said, I don't think I'm qualified for that. I don't have any experience in sales. [00:37:20] And he looked at me like I was an idiot, Tim. And he said, uh, Danny, if you can motivate inner city teenage boys to read Shakespeare, I'm pretty sure you can motivate my [00:37:30] sales team. And he did me a huge service. He got me to expand my point of view. And so that exp so what I'm saying is you should start small, but you can get, grow your audience to be bigger. I mean, one of [00:37:40] my favorite speakers is John Maxwell, and he started off as a minister. And so his first audiences were ministers and then Christians, but then he expanded to, uh, [00:37:50] more much broader audiences just on leadership and communication principles. Well, and and I think that's starting with the, the audience close to home that ends up with narrative therapy. [00:38:00] Yeah. Right. The, the story starts with what's your story? How does it help you change what you wanna change? How does it grow? And if you can't tell that [00:38:10] to yourself, it's incredibly hard to share with other people. Well, and 'cause they're also, they understand you better. I mean, with your military background, those military stories [00:38:20] hit home a lot closer to the, uh, to the guys that have served in the military. They understand exactly what you're talking about in a way that a person that didn't [00:38:30] serve wouldn't understand. And so you need to know who your audience is. And then the second question you have to understand is, well, what's the problem that you solve? The biggest problem I [00:38:40] see with a lot of people is they don't, they don't think about the audience's problems. Instead, they think about their solutions. And that's a big mistake. The audience doesn't care what your solution is. All they care [00:38:50] about is my problem. I need my problem solved. And so, for example, I work with a lot of, um, retirement, uh, specialists. And I'll say, well, what's the [00:39:00] problem that you solve? And they'll say, oh, uh, uh, a healthy retirement. I mean, well, that's not a problem. That's not a problem. That's a good thing. You know, maybe the problem you're solving is [00:39:10] people have enough money till the day they die. Uh, and they're like, oh, okay, I'm gonna see it. It's different when you phrase it that way. Mm-hmm. I was working with fitness trainers, I'm like, what's the problem that you solve? They're like, healthy [00:39:20] living. It's not a problem. Healthy living is a good thing. Maybe the problem you're solving is obesity. Maybe that's what you're doing. And so getting people to think about that. And so if [00:39:30] you can clearly answer, so let's, we will use you right now, Tim, as an example. So, so who's your audience for this podcast? White American, [00:39:40] heterosexual cis guys who either can't get to therapy or are looking for more nuance in the things they're looking for and those who love them. [00:39:50] Fantastic. A, a fantastic answer. I mean, you know your audience, that's a very specific audience. Like, I love that. And people say, oh, that's so specific. How could, how [00:40:00] could Tim make any money with that audience? All right. I'll give you an example. I was working with a woman a couple of weeks ago, Kathy. Kathy's amazing. I'm like, well, what's your niche? [00:40:10] What's your business? And she said, I make saddles for professional polo players. That's a niche. I'm like, well, that's certainly a niche. I'm laughing at her. I'm [00:40:20] like, you make any money at that? And she's like, well, last year, about $800,000. I'm like, I need to learn how to make saddles for professional polo players. This woman's a woman's doing just fine. [00:40:30] There's so many different ways, uh, to make money, and it's very counterintuitive, but, uh, you get that niche, you're in good shape, and then figure out what's, what's the problem that you're solving? [00:40:40] Yeah. So, so the second question for you is, what's the problem that you're solving for people, for your audience on this podcast? Getting to the gray instead of getting beaten [00:40:50] up by the black and white? Like, I like that, like that beating we're taking is just, I like that, but you might even want to make it in more plain language because, and so this is the, this is the way to look at the [00:41:00] problem, Tim. Is you want to think of the problem in terms that your audience would use. So the, so the exercise I use with people is, well, think of your ideal [00:41:10] audience member. What, what kept them awake at, at 3:00 AM last night? I bet you most of these skies weren't sitting there in bed last night thinking, you know what? I need the gray. [00:41:20] I'm tired of the black. That's probably not what use their words. What do you think they were saying to themselves? Shame and isolation. Ah, that's great. Right to the point. And you got two teaching [00:41:30] points right there. Shame and isolation. Can we come up with one more and being stuck. Okay. Being stuck. I like that. 'cause it's not, I don't like technical terms. I, I, [00:41:40] maybe it's 'cause I used to be a, a journalist. I, I like to keep things basic for people. Yeah. Where people can hear 'em. Yeah. So they can understand. I mean, people don't like being talked down to, they like plain [00:41:50] language. Uh, so I think that's great. So you're very clear about who your audience is and what's the problem that you solving, that you're solving. So. Before we ever craft a [00:42:00] presentation, we have to be able to answer those, those two questions. So that's clarity. And then we get into the presentation itself, which has four components. First of all, you have to connect with your [00:42:10] audience. Then you have to teach meaningful content that that helps solve their problem. Then you have one clear call to action, and finally, you have an emotional close. So let's [00:42:20] take 'em one at a time. We'll start with connection. There's no doubt what the most important part of any presentation is. It's, it's the opening your connection, connecting with the audience. You know, [00:42:30] in the first five minutes of your talk, your audience is gonna make a decision. Am I going to be present for this presentation or am I going to be engaged? And so here's a, uh, a little [00:42:40] ninja strategy I, I share with my clients. I, I hardly ever film myself speaking. I turn the camera towards the audience and film the audience. 'cause if I see [00:42:50] the audience leaning in, it means they're interested. And if they're on their phones, it means I have some storytelling to, to do. Well, you need, you need data to improve that's [00:43:00] outside of yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I got a friend, Davey Ky, he has a great saying. He says, uh, don't get mad, get data. And so filming people's a great way to get data, so [00:43:10] you have to connect. And we already just talked about that. And I, again, and I think that lines up with, with these topics too, right? Like the most of the time when I felt the worst with them is [00:43:20] when I feel unable to share them. Hmm. That there's, there's no way I can imagine talking to people in front of me where [00:43:30] they're gonna see me as somebody they wanna spend time with if I tell these wrong. Okay. And I think that's where so many of the liberal and moderate guys land is they can't figure out how to connect. But from [00:43:40] what you're saying, it starts with because they don't know what their story is. Yeah. And they don't know why they'd have any kind of authority. So I'll give you an example. I was speaking at a school [00:43:50] district in Charleston, South Carolina with 700 African American teachers. I'm supposed to give a motivational keynote, and you could tell just based on body language, people with their [00:44:00] arms crossed like, what's this white boy gonna teach me? And the moment they introduced me and said that I had taught for many years in Compton, in South Central la, I could see [00:44:10] people stop crossing their arms, lean in Le Quizzically at one another, like this white boy taught in Compton. I have street cred now. I mean, mm-hmm. I wouldn't, how many [00:44:20] assumptions do people make about you, Tim? How many people know that you served in the military? They're like, oh no, that he has a long beard. There's no way he served. I mean, he's not clean cut Joe [00:44:30] GI Joe, but it's more than I'm a counselor that usually turns him off the idea that I was in uniform. That's funny. But the Well, and I like how you're framing it. Like one of the things that I [00:44:40] really like the idea of when we frame out masculine credit is. When you're young, it's privileged based, right? Are you big? Are you strong? Are you athletic? Does your family have money? [00:44:50] Yeah. And I think as we grow, that stops getting respect. If you don't have a lane of competency, if you haven't taken [00:45:00] the time to go fail at something hard enough to learn, then at a certain point you lose masculine status. You can spend all the time in the gym you want. Yeah. [00:45:10] No one's gonna care about you if you don't have an opinion on something that they'd care about. Well, and I think I, I think with the stories like this, you've [00:45:20] gotta be able to sync 'em up on yourself. Like I have done a lot of work in figuring out what those two sides of that story mean to me, right. With the military and my grandfather. And a lot of [00:45:30] it comes down to acceptance of that gray acceptance of both things having to be true at the same time. But if I hadn't have done that work, I certainly couldn't have shared this [00:45:40] on a public podcast. And so. They can't connect with the outset, they can't connect with the audience unless the story and what they're bringing, they can connect to with some confidence. That's what I'm hearing. Am [00:45:50] I hearing it right? Yeah. And I'm, it's horrible that I'm doing this, Tim, I'm actually crafting your speech in my head right now. How I would help you on it, because I envision you having [00:46:00] one side of your stage is where you're talking about your guilt and your shame, and the other side of your stage is all the positive things that, oh, and this is where I, I learned this. And [00:46:10] then your, your epiphany is in the middle. Mm-hmm. I, I'm both of these things, I'm not just this, I'm, I'm not just this, I'm a, I'm a combination of all [00:46:20] those things. And I think that's a, that's a really uplifting speech with a power, a powerful message for your audience. 'cause you know, we, we can't run away from our backgrounds. I mean, I, history is [00:46:30] history, but it's in the past. I used to always tell students the. The windshield's a lot bigger than the rear view mirror. Let's focus on what's ahead, not what's behind us. Mm-hmm. [00:46:40] Well, I, I always like it for, uh, transforming people's stories so they can move forward. Uhhuh, there's a reason why we like the stories about the people who have been hurt [00:46:50] the most. Doing the best. Yeah. And I, I think for the kinda liberal leaning guys, what they need is to acknowledge the duality and [00:47:00] trauma of our history and like the guilt of what happened, but also acknowledge that a guy who comes from the family that did that is trying to do the other thing that's [00:47:10] not nothing. And the problems that are impacting most white guys in America are impacting a lot of other people. We're all getting ran over by housing. There's certainly things [00:47:20] we can all speak to. Young guys are struggling and it doesn't matter, like, don't me wrong. Race certainly complicates things. There's, they have different challenges, but they also have the same challenges.[00:47:30] And I think we can connect better by acknowledging the shared challenges while also acknowledging the ones that aren't shared. Yeah. Like my, my black colleagues do not have to [00:47:40] take care of my white guilt and I can't tell them how to process the generational trauma of slavery. That is not my story to correct. Well, and then just grouping us all together. I [00:47:50] think that's always a very dangerous thing, you know? Well, and I different, that's the hard part with these stories, right? Mm-hmm. Is we wanna use them to bring together, but we can't let it gloss so much. [00:48:00] Like at the Right is really good about using America's story to bring it together. Mm-hmm. They're very good about like, where Americans, we do good things, let's go. And there's truth in there, but they leave so many people [00:48:10] behind by not acknowledging the bad things. And then what we saw with the election, right? The left completely got rid of. The white guys [00:48:20] in America. Like if you looked at the website, Scott Galloway pointed this out where he went and looked at who was represented by the Democratic Party and they listed everyone except for white cishet guys. That's not a list of [00:48:30] who you represent. It's a list of who you don't. I like the way John, I always look at comedians for the best analysis and all this. John Stewart, we need the sugar to take the pill. Yeah. Yes. John Stewart was [00:48:40] fantastic 'cause they had, uh, uh, Republican and Democratic convention coverage. And he's like, uh, the Republican convention just had white males, you know, but the [00:48:50] Democratic Convention, we had blacks, we had Hispanics, we had EW walks, we had Klingons. And I, I just love the absurdity. Like, that's a way, it is absurd. It really [00:49:00] is absurd. Both sides being so extreme, one or the other. That's why I, I'm craft again, I'm crafting your speech in my head right now. It's like, okay, uh, let's, let's stop. [00:49:10] Uh, letting the margins control the debate. Let's get back to the middle because all of us, uh. Uh, we're a combination of, of the good and the bad. I, I really like that as a, as a [00:49:20] lesson. I think there's, there's a lot of power in that and, and this is why it's a, and again, it's basic stories that you can connect with people on these [00:49:30] things. Mm-hmm. I always love using stories from my childhood. I think childhood stories, what, what's powerful about child? And also I was a teacher, but childhood stories [00:49:40] basically show an innocence. So even if you were doing something wrong, I mean, if you're five years old versus now you're 35, well, you've learned a few things by [00:49:50] then. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was teaching a, a class the other day and I said it was on writing and, uh, the teacher told me that her kids [00:50:00] wouldn't write. And I said, well, if you want kids to write, if you want them to tell you their stories, you have to tell them your stories. The stupidest thing I ever told a group of [00:50:10] first graders, I said, come on, write about your lives. And they looked at me like I was from outer space. They're like, we're only six. Nothing's happened to us. And I'm like, I looked at it. I'm like, no, man. Things happen. I'm like, okay. When I [00:50:20] was in first grade, I had a teacher, she called me stupid. She smacked me on the hand and got me to cry in front of everybody else. And so the next day I was walking to school and I had an apple [00:50:30] and I peed on the apple and I gave her the apple that day and she said it was the best apple she had ever eaten. My little ones are like, that is awesome. This is also the reason I've [00:50:40] never accepted food from a child. But I realized, I'm like, oh, I need to model it for, I, I need to model it. The kids don't know what I'm talking about. And I see a lot of, a lot of people that I work [00:50:50] with, they don't think that they have stories. I'm like, you have tons of stories. Come on. We can, we can, we can go through your stories. Everybody has, uh, something that, and I prefer funny stories. I just. [00:51:00] I have a problem with the guys that focus on the trauma. There's three reasons for that, Tim. I mean, first of all, the world just survived a global pandemic. Everybody's had a lot of bad stuff [00:51:10] happen to 'em. I don't think we need more sad stories. I think we need more stories of hope. Second of all, what I'm teaching people how to do is how to create their well-crafted story that they're gonna [00:51:20] deliver again and again to introduce themselves to new audiences. Do you really want to talk about the worst day of your life again and again? I mean, I've got a friend, his daughter was killed [00:51:30] in a school shooting. He's delivered that speech over a thousand times. I have no idea how he talks about the worst day of his life again and again. And third, and this is where people get angry [00:51:40] with me. I have one goal when I'm on stage. I want you to leave feeling better than when you came in. I want you laughing, smiling, happy. I think there's something admirable about that as a goal. Mm-hmm. [00:51:50] I believe the people that tell the same sad speech again and again. By the 20th time they're telling it now, those are crocodile tears. And now you're being manipulative. And I'm not saying it's not an effective [00:52:00] sales technique, it's actually a very effective sales technique. But I for one, don't wanna have to take a shower after I get off stage. 'cause I just manipulated my audience. I, I think there's noble ways to get [00:52:10] people to want to do business with you or, or to have any kind of impact, even if it's not like I've, I've met, I've been in social justice now for coming up on 20 years Uhhuh. [00:52:20] And so I've met those people that they're, they're willing to come forward, they're willing to share their trauma, to get people to see something. And I think that's admirable. But I also think you're [00:52:30] right. That cannot be the only story you tell because either they're manipulating, which is not a way to connect, or they're literally retraumatizing [00:52:40] themselves over and over and over and over. And at a certain point you're just breaking yourself in half. Well, and, and don't get me wrong, I think it's all right to tell sad stories, [00:52:50] but there better be a happy ending eventually. I mean, we go from act, or at least they'll lesson to act two, act three. Better be on a high note. I mean, I, that's why I watch American movies instead of French movies. [00:53:00] I mean, if Julia Roberts dies the middle of a, an American movie, I know by the end of the movie they'll resuscitate her and she'll be alive. In a French film if she dies in the middle of the movie, I turn to my [00:53:10] wife, I'm like, I think she might be dead. This is really depressing. I don't have time for depressing. Yeah. I work, uh, primarily with, uh, vet's, first responders and [00:53:20] guys. Right? Yeah. So I, I collect plenty of bad stories all day. I only watch comedy. Oh yeah. After work. That's it. Right? I was watching a horrible show last week on TV [00:53:30] called, uh, the News, and it put me in a totally depressed state. There's a reason that they have nothing but depression, anti-depression, depression, uh, medications, advertising during [00:53:40] the nightly news. I'm like, my God, I, I have an uncle and he watches one of the news networks 24 7, and I asked him recently, I said, has the president consulted with you? [00:53:50] And he's like, what do you mean? I'm like, oh, well, you're so well-informed. I figured the president would ask your advice on how to deal with these issues. I'm like, what? What are you serving by just watching all this negativity [00:54:00] all the time? I mean, if there's an earthquake on the other side of the world, what are you gonna do about it? I mean, that's probably why people really, people in the 17th century were probably happier just 'cause they didn't get news for [00:54:10] years, didn't know. We get it in milliseconds. Our brains are not designed for the amount of decisions that we're expected to make. Completely agree. I I really like Mark Manson's. Oh [00:54:20] yeah. He's great. Take on this. Yeah, he's great. And uh, the one I saw recently with him was, uh, I didn't watch the video, but it came over and the thumbnail was, uh, collecting, [00:54:30] uh, gathering information as smart people, procrastination and or form a committee for those, you're in a university form a committee. That's a great idea. Well, it's just the idea that [00:54:40] if I know more, I'll feel better and you won't. No, you need to know enough to act. Yeah. And I think that's where like these stories that I, that I brought you on [00:54:50] to kind of help us tell, I think that's where some of these lessons can come in. Yeah. And one of them that I'm hearing is these, these stories that we're talking about don't, like, no one has a [00:55:00] really good answer for. But we also aren't giving the guys space to find the answer by just shutting it down. And so [00:55:10] I'm guessing that you see some powerful things come through with your masterminds, where when guys that are maybe struggling with this get together with some other guys [00:55:20] and can tell the story badly, that they can get together and have people around them where, this is hard for me, like a key component to me being okay [00:55:30] with the, the duality. A lot of these stories was I've got another friend who, he's educated like me, he served like me, and I could have very [00:55:40] intricate conversations on the complexity of it without worrying about him being mad because he's struggling with a lot of the same stuff. Yeah. So when you [00:55:50] see that in the groups, how does that change? How the guys engage with these stories. Oh, they love it. 'cause once one guy, you know, we've talked about this off air, is that guys don't [00:56:00] talk. Women are a lot smarter than men. Guys talk about like, I mean, there's like a, uh, I think it's a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial, where these two guys, they're watching the game together, they're hugging, they're [00:56:10] screaming, they, they're going through all these emotions and then the guy leaves and the other guy's wife comes up and she's like, oh, who was that? And he's like, I don't know. He accurate. [00:56:20] He just went through the entire realm of emotions with this guy. I mean, 'cause that's what guys are like, whereas women, they, they have to listen to one another. They solve each other's problems. And that's why [00:56:30] it's so important for guys to have a forum where they, they speak up once you get one guy. Ooh, it's, it's just a total, uh, I mean, uh, a rolling stone, [00:56:40] uh, gathers no moss. All of a sudden everybody starts, uh, uh, sharing stories. And it's important. Again, I'm a little bit different. I always think of the humorous story. I, I like to look at the [00:56:50] humorous angle for things. But there's people hurting there. The reason I'm looking at the humor is I guarantee you there's somebody listening to this right now, Tim, and you know this, it's suicidal. [00:57:00] They have to understand they're not alone. Les Brown, one of my favorite speakers, he says, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem that is so well [00:57:10] spoken. Isn't that a, that's one of my favorite lines. I'm like, you know, it's the truth. You were, you were made on this. You weren't made to complain and gripe about the [00:57:20] political structure in America. You were made for greatness. And, uh, again, I, I love this conversation. I, I, I, I'm thinking about the, the, the total, uh, [00:57:30] discrepancy in different opinions here. I'm like, but that's great. I love to be around people that think differently. How am I gonna learn if everybody disagrees with every, I mean, we know this from [00:57:40] leadership, the leaders that surround themselves with the yes men. They always fail. That's a, that's a recipe for disaster. You need people to disagree with you. I was just listening to an audio [00:57:50] book about, uh, Akio Marita, the founder of Sony, and one of the, he, he did something I just thought was amazing. He had this college kid that used to criticize all the [00:58:00] speakers for Sony. So what did he do? He hired him. He hired him. He said, I want you to criticize everything. How do we make this better? Have a contradictory, [00:58:10] uh, uh, point of view. I was like, holy cow. Isn't that, isn't that brilliant? I think that's the, that's the genius of that type of leadership like Abraham Lincoln, right? He [00:58:20] hired, he brought on his cabinet every enemy he ever had. Yeah. But part of his majesty as a leader was that he could get those guys to come and work towards something.[00:58:30] And I think this is where we want these things talked about. We want them in groups of support so guys can process them. But this is where we need to [00:58:40] remember that guys need space. Where the other people that are showing up are showing up to work on the problem, not to get hurt, not to [00:58:50] deny you the space, to talk out the complexity, so then you can find the humor. Right? There were funny things about my grandfather. He was a huge guy. He was a food addict, Uhhuh. And so the big man of the bank joke [00:59:00] was running around a lot. Um, I don't think we get to the humor without first getting through the story. There's pain, there's look, [00:59:10] and Lincoln is a perfect example. He is. Why, why? He's probably our most beloved presidents between him and George Washington. But Lincoln was a very flawed individual. He, he suffered a lot [00:59:20] before he ever became president of the United States. And the way he got through it. I mean, and that's why I love the book Team of Rivals by Doris Kerns Goodwin. I love it when they say the movie [00:59:30] Lincoln is based on the book. I think there's four pages from the book in the movie. It's ridiculous. But, uh, Lincoln, even when he was a countryside lawyer, people would come from 20 miles [00:59:40] away to whatever the inn or the, the little, uh, pub he was at, because he'd get by the fire and he would just tell stories. And during the, the toughest days of the, [00:59:50] uh, civil War, he was a storyteller. And it, uh, they, this is the scene that they actually use in the movie Lincoln, uh, was, there's this, there's this horrible thing [01:00:00] happening and the Secretary of War, Edwin Stanton's, like, no, don't tell us another one of your stories. And Lincoln of course ignores somebody. He's like, you know, when, uh, uh, Ethan [01:00:10] Allen was one of the founding fathers and he was one of the ambassadors to, uh, England. And when he went to England, uh, some of the British officers decided they were gonna have fun with him. [01:00:20] And so they hung up a, a portrait of, uh, George Washington and the latrine. And so they were playing cars with Ethan Allen and, uh, waiting for him to have to [01:00:30] do his business. Eventually he had to do his business. He came back and all the British officers were snickering. And, uh, he said, well, why are you snickering? And they [01:00:40] said, did you not see the portrait of George Washington in the, in the latrine? And he said, why? Yes. And they looked kind of quizzically at him. They're like, were [01:00:50] you not offended? He said, why? No. Every American knows the, the sight of George Washington scares the crap out of the British. How do you not fall [01:01:00] in love with a guy like that? This is how he would, he would lighten the moments, but he had, he had, this was serious times. And what he's trying to do is bond everybody [01:01:10] together with a story. I mean, a good story is like a good song. I think everybody should sing together at least once a day. You know, even if you have a bad voice, especially if you [01:01:20] have a bad voice, we need people bonding that way. Uh, and we just don't do that anymore. And this is the power of storytelling. And you just got me thinking about Lincoln. I'm [01:01:30] like, oh, he is one of my favorite storytellers of all time. Oh, he is one of everybody's favorite storytellers. Oh, he is. Great. Um, I wanna be respectful of your time. Okay. Like, what's the, the kind of on [01:01:40] these deep topics in like two or three sentences, what should guys be doing with them to get to where they can tell their stories? [01:01:50] Cultivate them and simplify them. So cultivate them means don't ignore those stories. You need to write those stories down. One of the things I used, well, I, I still do it. I've [01:02:00] always kept a journal. And I look back to my journals from 30 years ago, my aspirations and the things that were important to me. And I kinda laugh. I read them [01:02:10] out loud and I'm like, wow, that was really shallow. And then I read what I'm thinking today, what are the problems and, and struggles and things. I'm like, huh, this is really interesting. [01:02:20] Um, so I, I encourage there, there used to be a website, I don't know if it still exists, where you could, you could write yourself a letter and then it would email you the letter like a year later or whatever to, and [01:02:30] I'm like, wow. Uh, that, that's interesting. So I think you need to cultivate those stories and then you simplify them. People think that, uh, it has to be a, an extraordinary story to [01:02:40] hit home. And I'm like, actually, I completely disagree with that. I think it's the opposite. They need to be relatable. Yeah. I think it's those relatable stories, like the way I would teach you, uh, if you're speaking to [01:02:50] a bunch of people that are not veterans, I would, I would say. For me, my dilemma was with my military background. For you, your dilemma might be with your [01:03:00] spouse or at work or by, by really universalizing, hey, you might not have exactly the same problem, but that doesn't mean you don't have a very similar [01:03:10] problem that all of us, I mean, I have a friend who, uh, he survived cancer and I was encouraging him to tell that, that story, and he said, no, I'm not [01:03:20] gonna let the toughest time of my life define me. Yeah. I was like, wow. That was very admirable. I thought, I think like I, I just came up with a relation point on some of [01:03:30] these things. I don't know anyone who's proud of everything their family has done. No. Every family has a member or 14 that they look at and go, yeah, [01:03:40] that was not great. Like, we don't, we don't like that. We don't like that. That's part of our story. Yeah, and I think most people can probably relate to that and most of us have some pretty funny [01:03:50] stories about some of those family members depending. Well, so I guess now we get to get a little bit more of your story, that you've already been so generous with the, uh, the three questions [01:04:00] I ask everybody that, that come on. Um, it's a little bit more about you directly. Okay. And, you know, the goal is just to like, help people hopefully feel a piece of their story and yours, right. [01:04:10] As always. Great. So what's the truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12? That still holds true today? Actually, uh, I'll quote Jesse Jackson. He [01:04:20] said something once, which I really thought was pretty profound. He said, uh, he, he was talking to a group of us young men. He said, uh, fathers, uh, your, your [01:04:30] sons need your presence, not your presence. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and it's not your gifts. It's the gift of being there. And I was very blessed. My father, uh, [01:04:40] was the most extraordinary person I knew. He, uh, he was a gentle, complete opposite of me. Very reserved. Very rarely hear his voice, because my mom [01:04:50] dominated the com. Conversation. You can tell who I took after. Uh, but he was very wise. He always encouraged us kids to, to listen to different points of view, [01:05:00] but he taught me that, uh, showing up means a lot more than showing off. Uh, he was always there for me and, uh, you would never [01:05:10] know all the extraordinary things he had done because, uh, he was a very humble man, a good man. So providing can't be all of it. I think that dovetails nicely into the next [01:05:20] one, right? You've got your father who I, I like how you described him as a very, like, opposite personality to you, so I'm sure that led to some of these things. Uh, tell us about a time [01:05:30] pursuing your masculinity hurt you those times where trying to be a man didn't go well. Oh, that would be, yeah. I, well now I'm, I'm an older man, uh, I guess in my twenties. [01:05:40] Uh, I seem to think I knew it all. Uh, I always thought I was right and, uh. I had to win every conversation and, uh, win people over [01:05:50] to my point of view. And, uh, maybe it's just, uh, at this point you can chop off my head and count the rings. I'm pretty old at this point, and I realize that's just never, you're never gonna [01:06:00] convince some somebody of a different point of view by telling 'em something. You have to, uh, uh, there's other ways to, uh, persuade people, but, uh, trying to win the [01:06:10] argument, uh, I, I think, I always think of the, there's a great story of, um, Winston Churchill's mother. Jenny was a contemporary Queen Victoria, [01:06:20] and, uh, she knew every famous person of the day. And a, a journalist asked her, uh, about the differences she saw in Prime Minister Gladstone and Prime Minister Dera. [01:06:30] And her response was phenomenal, Tim. She said, well, whenever I left a meeting with Prime Minister Gladstone, I left feeling like, wow, he is [01:06:40] the most interesting person I have ever. But whenever I left a meeting with Prime Minister Disraeli, I left feeling like, wow, I am the most [01:06:50] interesting person he has ever met. And so I, I guess as I've gotten older, I realize, uh, it's much more, and this is why I appreciate you bearing with me today. It's much [01:07:00] more, uh, important to be interested than interesting. So I, I, I am grateful that you've, uh, bared with me today and let me share stories. Uh, [01:07:10] um, it's, it's important to be a very good listener. I've learned, I definitely fell into that as a young man, that like, take up space, be right, and you'll get [01:07:20] respect. Yeah. And that's never in my lifetime worked. No. And now that I'm married, I guarantee it doesn't work. You, you can be right. [01:07:30] Okay. So how does that help your marriage? Exactly. I can be right. Or I can be happy. So, well, let's, let's go out on that high note that you're, you're so fond of, right? [01:07:40] Uh, tell us about a time pursuing your manhood helped you, empowered you. Oh, what I do right now, I, I work I lot with, um, you know, small [01:07:50] business owners or executives or entrepreneurs that are, that are having a tough time. I mean, the things that you're dealing with, there are men all over the place that are dealing with these issues, these issues of, as you said, [01:08:00] it like shame. Uh, you know, uh, am I having any kind of impact on the world? And, uh, that's what I love about what I do, is I get to, I get to kind of shine the [01:08:10] light back on people and show them, oh, this is your gift. This is why you're here. Um, and you need to, it's, it's your duty. This is why I get people on stages, is I'm like, it's your [01:08:20] duty to share your story so that you know little boys out there that think they're weird, say, you're not the only one. That's weird. I, I, I read. You see behind me all my [01:08:30] books, I love reading biographies of, uh, successful people. And there's one thing most of these successful people have in common. Most of 'em dropped outta school. That's always challenged me. I'm [01:08:40] like, what are we doing wrong in school? How, what, what more could we do to help people, uh, so that they prosper? And, and that's what, uh, one of the things I love about podcast is, [01:08:50] uh, the world's gotten a whole lot smaller now. And same thing with the internet. I mean, you used to have to be born in New York City to have an impact on society. I mean, right now there's [01:09:00] some barefoot kid in Cambodia on a dirt floor, hasn't eaten breakfast, hasn't seen mom or dad all day. But if they have a, a laptop and a internet connection, they have the same access [01:09:10] as the head of Google. I get everybody else is a doom and gloom. I'm like, oh, I get excited about this because there's people that can solve problems that, uh, and I read about 'em all the time. People that [01:09:20] are thinking about things. I, I had a coach in AI and he was fascinating. His father died of pancreatic cancer. So he's developed an AI that can detect pancreatic [01:09:30] cancer in stage one. And he told me this, I'll, I'll end with this as an optimistic point of view. He said, Danny, the first person in America to live to be 150 years old [01:09:40] is already alive today. Wow. So, so you're your masculinity and that provider role, right. That [01:09:50] business like, I'm gonna help people be providers. Absolutely. It's a very important, I mean, I see so many guys that are guilty. You know, definitely you need to [01:10:00] really think about, this is why these questions are actually good for life, is who is my audience and what is the problem I'm solving? If I'm a husband, my audience is my wife, how do I provide for her? [01:10:10] Uh, if my kids, my I'm a father, how am I providing for them? And again, maybe it's, uh, you were talking about your grandfather and your father. Your, your father [01:10:20] just looked at your, your grandfather's. That dude that. You know, the reason we have dinner is 'cause of him, but he goes off to work and I never see him. What a shame. I, I, [01:10:30] and it was a different generation where that was the expectation. And I, I, I'm very blessed that I, I get to spend time, quality time with my family and, [01:10:40] uh, and so there's nothing wrong. So again, I'm thinking of your speech, Tim. I'm thinking about like, here's the rough and tough Tim that was in the military, but here's the, here's the Tim. [01:10:50] That's, that's very cerebral thinking about, well, what does it, what's social justice? What does it mean to be a man in America, a white male in America, in, in the, the [01:11:00] 21st century and moving forward? So I and I, and then finding your solution is that you're, both of those things, you, you are both of those things and there's nothing wrong with that. [01:11:10] Don't run away from it. Well, and he and I, I really like how your, your story played out with what your father taught you young was your presence was the greatest gift, but he also taught you enough that [01:11:20] providing was also. Yeah. Part of your job and part of a lot of guys' jobs. Yeah. And I think that anytime we let ourselves be one thing for too long, [01:11:30] we get very, very brittle. Well said. And that doesn't make a whole life. Yeah. Well said. Well, how would folks find you if they wanted to learn how to tell stories from one of the [01:11:40] greats? Well, as a thank you to you, Tim, and your audience, uh, for letting me indulge, I, I'd love to give everybody a freebie. So if you go to. Free story [01:11:50] guide.com guide, like a tour guide, free story guide.com. I'm gonna give everybody their own well-crafted story blueprint. What this is, is the actual procedure I take [01:12:00] clients through when we're shaping their well-crafted story. What this does for you is it takes the guesswork out of how do I become an effective speaker to showing you exactly where you put [01:12:10] different items in your presentation and why you put them there. And what this means for you is the peace of mind that I have a way to, uh, to turn audiences into converts. Whether [01:12:20] that, uh, is professional converts or personal converts, they're going to follow that next step with me. You can get that@freestoryguide.com and, uh, I just appreciate [01:12:30] all that you do, Tim, and, uh, I'll end the way. Uh, uh, whether I was teaching my little ones or my older ones as they exited my classroom for the day, they always had to hear the same [01:12:40] refrain. I always reminded them, remember, kids education is valuable, but execution is priceless. Knowledge is not power. Only [01:12:50] applied knowledge is power. Knowing what the right thing to do and doing the right thing are two very different things. So let's go out, do the right thing and make this world a better place. And I, I'm very [01:13:00] privileged to have spent this time with you, Tim, 'cause you're making the world a better place. Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. That's our conversation with Danny. Thanks so much for listening. I wanna make [01:13:10] it really clear that this was us talking about our stories and our experiences of being white guys in America. That's not gonna line up for everybody. They're not gonna be everybody else's stories, [01:13:20] and so there really isn't much to fact check on this episode. There are personal narratives that said, thank you if you've made it this far for listening to our stories and listening to us try to figure out how to make [01:13:30] them whole. It means a lot that you're engaged in these conversations and that you're taking on these things as well. At the beginning, I asked you which parts of your story are divided up. How do you tell [01:13:40] your story on the good end and on the bad end? Now, I'm hoping that you can think about who you can talk to about this. Not everybody has a Danny. Not everybody has a podcast. [01:13:50] Who do you go to to have these conversations with? And if you don't have anybody who might you go to, take a moment, send me a message or leave a comment letting us know who is on [01:14:00] deck to help you process your story. It's important to share these things because I think other guys are also looking for who to share their story with and who to connect with and hearing yours might help them [01:14:10] find theirs. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week When we talk about student athletics and its impact on young boys and [01:14:20] [01:14:30] men.