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Many people tend to associate masculinity with the concept of dominance, control, discipline. kink is not inherently sexual. Kink is an avenue. It's an avenue for catharsis and healing. Adults forget that we need to play Ultimately the power always lies with the sub ' If there isn't consent, it's not kink. Are you curious about kink? Are you wondering what kink and masculinity have to do with each other? Are you someone who loves a man and wanna bring them into kink spaces and are unsure how to do so? If you answered yes to any of those you're in the right place, In our sixth episode, I'm really excited to bring you Amanda Earl. She's an incredibly dear friend of mine who also happens to be a licensed psychotherapist. With almost eight years of experience working in the kink universe, She's helped so many people explore the aspects of identity, power and desire within the kink world. and she's who I call about the intersection of masculinity and kink when my clients need that support and I'm unable to know what to do. She's a fantastic resource. We're very lucky to have her. Let's jump into it. Hey, Amanda. I'm so happy you're here. You're one of my favorite people in the world and I get to share you with the world now, thank you so much for being here. I was honored to be asked, so thank you for having me. I have some knowledge of kink just because so many guys come in for help with their sexuality, sexual performance, that thing. And I feel like it's gotten so much more expansive than my memories of it when I was exploring that space 20 years ago and conversations with you have really helped flush that out. For folks who maybe aren't familiar with what kink is and how , to frame it for themselves, could you define kink for us please? Of course I can , just to validate your observation of kink becoming more and more popular, people becoming more and more interested. A lot more people openly talking about kink and what it is and what it can be. Kink is really an umbrella term., it is a collection. It is an overarching broad spectrum of non-conventional sexual practices, concepts, fantasies, While there is a lot of intersect between sex and sexuality and kink and exploration, kink is not inherently sexual. A lot of people play or practice kink or engage in certain scenes or dynamics that are not sexual. There's no physical intimacy., or sometimes there's, there's a little bit of physical intimacy, but it's not necessarily sexual intimacy., so when it comes to kink, it's much broader than we realize. When we think of kink, we often combine kink in BDSM. BDSM is actually just a little subset of kind of that larger, as I mentioned, that umbrella term of kink., when I think about kink, kink is counterculture, it is counter to kind of the, the shoulds, the expectations, the assumptions on how we should interact, experience intimacy, or experience sex.. And kink. Whew. Kink is an avenue. It's an avenue for catharsis and healing. It is therapy. Kink is an avenue for creativity, artistry, performance, expression., it can be competence. People take a lot of accomplishment and what they can achieve, , when it comes to their kink practices., kink is also a space for exploration and empowerment. Personal empowerment, but connected empowerment. If there isn't consent, it's not kink. And in many ways, people seek out kink to have those healing experiences when it comes to consent or trust, or being in a vulnerable space and feeling safe. Hmm. So when I would think of kink 20 years ago, it was primarily from a B-D-S-M lens. Can you define BDSM? Break down the acronym for Yes, I can. Yes I can. It's a little bit easier when there is a visual, , so, BDSM, so B bondage, D discipline, you also have D dominance, S submission, and then you have S sadism, M masochism. So when we think of BDSM, even that term is expansive of both bondage practices sadism masochism. So kind of creating harm or receiving harm, as well as what we call power exchange dynamics. So when we think about dominance and submission and those roles that people take on, it's a power exchange. As a therapist who specializes in kink, with people in those power exchange dynamics. I work with people in a variety of different kinks. And while dominance and submission are, you know, I would say most people tend to kind of fall into one or the either, , we also have people who are called switches who they may assume the role of a dom or they may assume the role of a sub. Now, in my clinical work it tends to, if I'm working with a switch, it tends, the work tends to focus a little bit more on identity and being able to kinda feel confident embodied in both roles without anything being minimized. I would say though, when it comes to kind of DOM and submission I haven't necessarily noticed a connection to gender specifically. Hmm. But definitely that feeling of, I want to be held, I want to be able to feel safe and submit., another important thing to note when it comes to power exchange dynamics such as ds, so Ds referring to Dom sub, for some people, dom sub dynamics and power exchange only shows up in their play. So if they're in a dungeon or if they're at home, if they are in what's called a scene where they are enacting the dynamic in the power exchange, DS Dynamics can also, they can also show up 24 7. So I also, you know, both in my profession and in my personal life, I know of people who are in, what's, what are called 24 7 dynamics, where there's someone who is in that dominant role, and a partner in that submissive role. and when, yeah, when I think about. I would say there is a tie between high achieving and high responsibility of those people seeking that desire to sub. Though I also have, you know, worked with people where it has manifested in, you know, wanting to translate into their personal life. They feel this sense of control in their professional lives or other aspects and they also want to be able to enact it in their play, but in a very different way.'cause it is a different experience holding that sense of control and dominance if you're in the boardroom versus an if you're in the bedroom. So even if even people who are still wanting that dominance and, and control play can really be so much more different and so much more expansive and fulfilling, uh, in these different ways. Adults forget that we need to play, we need times in our life where we can just play. We can just explore. We encourage children to play. That's how they learn about the world. That's how they learn about each other. That's how they learn about themselves. Adults, we forget that we also need to play. Now play can that, that can show up in our hobbies, it can show up in our leisure activities. When it comes to play in particular with kink, essentially play is the activity that you and your partner are engaging in. It's the activity, the practice it's the scene. So when you are witnessing. When you are witnessing what's called a scene where there's a do sub, everything that occurs in that scene was negotiated. Was contracted, as I mentioned earlier. Uh, kink is only kink with consent. And so when it comes to navigating play or interacting right with your partners or your play partners, uh, everything needs to be discussed. There needs to be consent, there needs to be check-ins. There needs to be attunement to each other. Yeah. Well, and it sounds like essentially the, the setting up of a scene or play is. Two people or however many together and setting some agreements ahead of time basically making a sandbox for their experience where we can do everything within this box Yes. Yeah. this is how we tap out if we Mm-hmm. box. And these are the things that you, I really can't, don't want you do or not, I'm not comfortable doing. Yeah. Essentially when we talk about a scene or contracts or negotiations, it's the container to hold the play, to hold the exploration. Honestly, I think a lot about the parallel when it comes to therapy. We are building this safety, we are building this trust. We are creating this container to then be able to explore. We hold that space for our clients to explore, to not really know what they're gonna discover. Now, when it comes to kink, because this emphasis on consent, they talk through what the scene will entail, and obviously certain people, they'll negotiate or contract to different degrees of safety or harm reduction, you know, within that dynamic. But really, a scene is essentially the container. It's like the therapy appointment. That's not a bad way to frame it. Where is the intersection between masculinity and kink and where is the disconnection? So when I, I was in that space, it's always from the, the dominant submissive aspect. And those tended to be framed, if at all, by gender was masculine or feminine. That I don't think is as No. now. So how, how is masculine and kink cross sectioning where it's connecting? So there are a lot of different ways where kink and masculinity intersect. As I mentioned earlier kink is expansive in and of itself. So when we think about kink, we have we have practices or we have play, or we have scenes. So. When we think of, you know, many people tend to associate masculinity with the concept of dominance, control, discipline. And many people who step into that role of the dom, regardless of gender, they enact that sense of dominance. They enact that sense of control when it comes to bondage and discipline. So ChAARI rope play, utilizing ropes. You'll have the dom who is, you know, tying the partner, creating the artistry, creating the space, whether it's, them holding control of how they're planning to tie. so you masculinity can show up in that practice or what we tend to associate the, the characteristics we tend to associate with masculinity. On the flip side though. There are also people who are submissives, who are very masculine. They present very masculine. They embody those attributes of masculinity. You have also what are called service tops. You have people who are intentionally right, trying to challenge these traditional ideas of power. There's a phrase, you know, there's a saying called topping from the bottom, where you know you are in the more quote unquote vulnerable position, but you are still in control. You are still in that place of dominance. And even when we talk about DS dynamics and power exchange, ultimately the power always lies with the sub 'cause. The sub is. Continuously consenting to the dynamic con, continuously consenting to the play. So in many ways, people who are in those submissive roles, they also hold a lot of power. They also hold a lot of control. They can tap out, they can end the scene at any time. So there's an intersect between masculinity or what we can typically consider, you know, those attributes that we associate with masculinity when it comes to play. Kink though, is also, it's not only about play and practice. Kink can also be expression. For example, cross-dressing is a kink. This is my first podcast interview. Yay. So I wanted to dress up a little bit, and because we're talking about masculinity, I wanted to wear a piece of clothing that is traditionally masculine, a tie, Hmm. Technically I am cross-dressing, because I identify as a, a woman, but I am wearing a more masculine tie. Now this may not seem like a big deal right now because our culture, fashion, it has become more progressive. actually, my, I, women have more freedom around how they wear gendered And so, in many ways, kink and masculinity, they intersect in that. A lot of people seek out kink to almost subvert these kind of traditional aspects or these traditional expectations. I have to present and show up in this very masculine profession or this masculine role, in my day-to-day. And yet kink offers me this space to kind of say, XXXX it. I can be free. I can wear whatever I want. I can wear any material regardless of color, , regardless of cut., just because it feels good, because I like how I look, because I want to kind of, challenge some of those traditional norms., kink and masculinity intersect in this idea of challenging. Those kind of traditional norms when it comes to masculinity and kink can also, you can also utilize kink to almost amplify a lot of these traditional beliefs about masculinity such as leather daddies. leather daddies are, traditionally cis men in kink culture who wear right, who wear pieces of leather to almost amplify, and enhance their expression of masculinity or kind of this traditional belief of masculinity. There are many different ways, when I think about age play are you have typically dynamics of, mommies and daddies are in the dominant role, and then littles being able to experience masculinity as a daddy, being able to experience masculinity in a way that is caregiving and loving. Or on the opposite, a little, being able to be a little boy, being able to experience masculinity, right. As someone who is younger, as someone who is able to be a boy and like boy things and like masculine things, but still be able to play., age play is, , inherently non-sexual. Mm-hmm., for some people, some people like the textures of, you know, certain pieces of clothing or right, they can experience kind of that sexual arousal or excitement. Mm-hmm. but at least in my experience age play is more around , identity exploration. It is more around, , being willing to receive care, being able to receive care for those who identify in, as littles. Well, and I think this really speaks to that expansiveness that we've seen within the Kink community. the reason I wanted to point it out with the, the age play is there's two things that make people uncomfortable whenever kink comes up when I'm talking to yep. furries age play. My experience of working with furries you have people who it's more about aesthetic and, they enjoy wearing what are called the fur suits for others in that community. It's more of an identity piece of, they identify more closely kind of with that animal. And that's how they want to interact in the world. That's how they want to experience the world. You also have what are called pups. There are people who identify as pups that tends to be that leather kind of hooded pup face. If you are kind of maybe at a pride event, from my anecdotal experience, there is intersect of sex and or sexual experience and sexual exploration, uh, in within the furry community. I would say as well, I am in this kind of unique, , privileged position in that, because I advertise as a kink therapist,, even within the King community, I've worked with very diverse people with very diverse and different kinks. And so, a lot of my anecdotal experience is, I guess, a bit more expansive maybe than someone who is, not as involved or not as, participatory, in kink or maybe advertising it. whether it's advertising it as a clinician or a healthcare provider or who doesn't necessarily have as much personal or lived experience in those spaces. What I imagine you're also getting more people who hit walls of information that aren't available, where you can show up to some events with certain kinks, and there is. An acceptance and a readiness to educate people and then some kinks have more resistance to them than others in various spaces. So , I would assume you get a much broader range than what most of us see when we talk to our friends about their sexuality. definitely do. And the reason I smile as you're, as you were saying, that, , while the kink community, , is counterculture more accepting of the, what we call the non-normative, it's still a community. There is still othering, there is still hierarchy, there is still stigma. In particular within the larger king community. There is, enhanced stigma around age play.. And for me, someone who is educated, it's very frustrating., a lot of the stigma is rooted in misunderstanding, misunderstanding, ignorance, and a lack of interest in researching or exploring.. And because there is so much stigma around age play, in particular, They're aware, they recognize what society says or assumes they recognize what the, the community may say or assume. And at least my experience of people who, who engage in age play, there's an even greater emphasis on consent. There is an ever and greater e emphasis on communicating the boundaries and the limitations and what kink is to them versus what people are trying to assume kink is to them. And at least in my work, in working with people in those communities. I've always been really encouraged'cause working with clients in age play, I've witnessed so much self-acceptance. More often than not, when I work with someone who, their kink is age play, they've already done the work and have come to accept who they are and come to accept their kink. It's more about how they interact with the larger world. It's how they communicate. It's how they challenge these biases, right? Where someone assumes they're inherently dangerous. It's, yeah, I, it's, it's tough work. It's tough work. It's tough work when you can come to accept and love and feel secure in yourself yet. The larger society and larger culture just refuses to see the real story. Mm-hmm. Well, that's where seeing pain in so many places is when there's self-acceptance, which is key to finding one's grounding, but then have yourself then not accepted within a community. Is tragic., we see it within sexuality dynamics, gender dynamics around trans folks and families where they lose community by accepting this part of themselves. This seems like another one of those areas where that's happening, except they're going to places where this is supposed to be like the place for these Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was my own therapist who talked about how we humans are constantly wrestling with the conflict of authenticity and belonging. Hmm. How do I need to give up my authenticity? How do I need to make myself small, minimize myself in order to be accepted or in order to belong or vice versa, what connections or intimacy or support am I sacrificing in order to finally be who I am fully, wholly, and authentically?, the reason I love being a therapist, a therapeutic space is the one space where it is guaranteed as long as the therapist is doing their job. It is the space where it is guaranteed someone can experience both authenticity and belonging. And, uh, I would say navigating that dissonance is incredibly common for a lot of my clients who are kinky. A lot of the work is, you know, we meet people where they're at. Some people come into session with me, you know, feeling really insecure about the kink they hold. And the work is in that intrapersonal. It's that work of self-acceptance. It's that work of identity exploration and affirmation. I have people who come into session and they're very secure in their identity. They're very secure in their kink, but they don't know how to broach it with their partner. They don't know how to, you know, they don't know where to go to find community. Friendship and community are two different things. That's something that's become, very just, it's come into my awareness in a lot of aspects of my life recently. There is that friendship, that ongoing support, that connection we feel. Between another person or multiple people. Mm-hmm. that difference of community, this just shared collective, this shared space, where we can show up. And, fortunately we live in a state that is a bit more progressive. Colorado is more progressive. Denver has a number of kink spaces. You have your rope studio, you have traditional dungeons there there is a store specifically for age players. you also, you know, even outside of Denver, there are other cities in Colorado that also have kink spaces. And so, we are fortunate in that Colorado is a place where you can. There are more opportunities to connect with in-person community. Now, a lot of sters will rely on the internet. A lot of sters will turn to discord. A lot of Sters will use FetLife. The kinky LinkedIn as it is referred to in the community It's both. It's feeling into the, that authenticity, but also allowing that auth authenticity to show up in community, in connection. And, you know, not only is it I'm accepting myself, but it's also others are accepting me., as we're talking about this, and I kind of keep coming back to the gender dynamics of kink, one of the things that's really coming forward is one of the points of this podcast is to help people recognize masculine and feminine qualities exist in most people. And it seems like. space gives people to go plan those dynamics, to figure that part of themselves out should they need to. Whether that is, I am masculine and I need a place to roar and I'm gonna go into dominant space. Or whether that's I'm a cross dresser and I need to be seen in these clothes and empowered in these clothes wear it is not safe in Mm-hmm. Like if you're a guy in a dress in public, you are in Yep. and so I think at its best, that's what it's for. Am I reading that correctly? Yes. Yes, completely. Kink, , being that place of exploration, it being that place of expression, yeah. You could go into a kink space to really amplify that feeling of you really amplify and explore the intensity of your masculinity, , experiencing, , aggression, experiencing dominance, control, traditional concepts of masculinity. You can walk into a kink space and experience, right? Your masculinity as someone who is nurturing. And someone who is caring. That is something that when we were talking about age play, a lot of people are seeking nurturance. Both give and receive in very intentional ways. You, yeah, you can go into a kink space and you can just play, you can walk into a king space and still embody masculinity while also doing things that maybe yeah, you're a little hesitant to do elsewhere or with certain people or, Well, there's that physical risk of safety. Yeah, like having knowledge available. I remember early in my life when I was, when I was running around college, it wasn't uncommon back then for women that I was seeing to want to explore kinky things from a submissives role, but I had Mm-hmm. to go to learn how to do that safely. So it was drastically uncomfortable exploring it. A lot of times, and I think this comes up a lot for some of the guys that I work with, is there's this, that's there. I know it's a thing, but I know if I do it like 50 shades of gray, I am gonna kill Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where do I go? This kind of goes into the next question of people that are curious about that space. How do they go explore it safely? Yeah, so I would definitely encourage. Education and education through sources that are not porn, or un you know, if you are gonna turn to porn, um, you know, kind of finding a reputable site. Where there, you know, there are people who understand kink and understand consent. 50 shades of gray. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's there, there, there are a lot of spicy takes. on that book, on the one hand it did introduce, you know, kink to the mainstream. On the other hand, yeah, there's definitely some, some, some problematic pieces. One resource that I really appreciate is the National Coalition, , for Sexual Freedom., their website, , they do a week, or I think it's a monthly newsletter of just various articles around kink consent. There's also the intersect of consensual nom monogamy a lot of times kind of kink and consensual non-monogamy. They, they tend to go hand in hand just because if you right, say you and your partner, your kinks don't necessarily align or how you want to experience those kinks don't necessarily align. You want to seek out other play partners. So that's a lot of times where there's that overlap. But the National Coalition for Sexual. Freedom is a really great resource. They also have on their website the KAP, the Kink Aware Professionals Directory. I am listed as a kink competent,, therapist. But it's, a directory that's much more expansive beyond therapist. I mean, lawyers are listed, doctors are listed, and it, and it goes by state. It's an incredibly helpful resource. Going online to some of these kink focused resources, podcasts, there are influencers, Mm-hmm. there are really well known Sters Midori, I believe it's Planet Midori on Instagram. She's really known in the ChAARI world. I also attended, I attended. A humiliation play workshop by Midori and Humiliation play is not I don't yuck in other people's yum. It's just something that's not quite my kink, but I'm like, let me, let me gain a better understanding. Mm-hmm. Mole. Ah, was getting, I was getting a little hot and a little sweaty by the end of that workshop 'cause Wow. Yeah. Midori edge is another well-known Kister. There's other organizations. So there's the Kry is another great handle. I can go and kind of look through my list of resources and send them to you, Tim, if you'd like. I would, so that way we can have it in the show notes for people with some links. One, one of the things I'm really pushing on that we're, we are just hearing it as a profession more and more, is we're not gonna get rid of the internet. We're not gonna get social media, we're not gonna get rid of discord. But those aren't enough. I. And I appreciate you mentioning that and that they are not, they're not., so while there are these virtual resources while there are educational resources, there's books, there's all these things, what about actual community? What about actual, you know, experiencing typically when it comes to a dungeon or a kink space. They have orientations. So in order to Right an order to attend an event at the sanctuary or Voodoo leather works, you need to attend an orientation. It's something that's really important. You can be oriented to the space. Oftentimes volunteers of those spaces, talk through the rules, they'll talk through the expectations. When you go to play spaces such as dungeons, you have what are called dms, dungeon monitors, who are walking through the space, you know, ensuring that consent is being respected, that those rules and regulations you learned at the orientation are also being respected. In addition to orientations . You can go to a kink space and you can do what's called a tasting. You walk in and there are different vendors, or there are different,, educators really well, well-known sters, who can offer you, , if you're intrigued by something, they can offer you a taste of what it's like to experience knife play of what it's like to experience a violet wand, which I highly recommend personally. so tastings are another really great way. Also within the community is what's called munches, where they're essentially meetups. They're social spaces where you can go and just try to meet people try to connect with people without that intimidation of of a play space or being in a dungeon. Now are, one of the things , I'm thinking of while you're talking about all these is I know that in some instances, a cis hetero guy, you are not allowed in by yourself, When it comes to, when it comes to more sex focused spaces, such as a sex club there tends to be more barriers to being a single cis hetero male. And that is differentiated from a dungeon. This is not generally gonna be the case for a dungeon. I. not generally going to be the case for Dungeons. Certainly going with other people whether it's your friends, whether it's your play partners, may help you with the vulnerability. It can be a vulnerable experience. I am someone who is very educated on kink kink for me is very normalized to the point where now I'm in public. Now I'm like around vanilla people and I kind of have to check myself and be like, oh, am I, am I talking about something that's a little too spicy? Or I am someone who's very educated on kink. I talk about it all the time. I felt quite vulnerable. The first for the fir during the first tasting event that I attended. I would say more sex focused spaces. Kink is a little bit different. It's that broader spectrum we were talking about yes. Mm-hmm. And so as long as you're in that broader spectrum space, that's generally not gonna be a concern. I, I just know that a lot of guys really worry about that when they're walking into sexual places, right. Not sex places. There's a concern about walking in as a Mm-hmm. and how you're seen and, and how you're looked at. Most young guys I work with are consistently worried about how they come off, if they're gonna come off as creepy, et cetera. And those spaces are even more intimidating for those worries. And so it's nice to give them a little comfort of, you're welcome and it's a place of education at these times. It is, it is. There are also other, there's other like places, there's other organizations. You I know a few like sex shops, like they'll often hold host like workshops for people to attend. Yeah, I also, work with, some cis male clients, cis hetero male clients who also often question that aspect of belonging. Going back to that authenticity versus belonging. I also work with many, cishet men who feel like they don't necessarily belong in kink spaces or spaces centered around consensual nom monogamy or polyamory. And it's tough on the one hand kinky spaces, spaces that are for, you know, people who are consensually non-monogamous, they're often very queer. there is a lot of overlap as well between the king community and the queer community. And it is important for people who are in the L-G-B-T-Q community to have spaces that they can trust are safe. And I really empathize with the struggle of cishet men who are safe. And are hesitant or questioning, or are feeling concerned as to whether or not they belong personally, I believe they belong they belong, in allyship. Um Well, or in kink space, explicitly mm-hmm. Right? Like we will, I'm gonna have you back on to talk about poly, so I wanna like kind of Yeah. wall this off a little bit. Um, for cis guy is in kink space. You look like who hurts people. As a cis guy, of violent crimes are committed by men. And so it's sometimes hard if you're empathetic to walk into those spaces and not wonder how you're seen in Mm-hmm. And I think over time we'll get better, but there's also the shaming of, if you're in a kink community, gotten a lot better. I think people are a lot more broad in their accept Mm-hmm. but I still have clients that shamed for not being kinky in this way. Like, Hey, you're kinky. You should be into anything. Anything that, like, whatever, whatever. And you're like, no, that's not, that's not my bag. It's similar to kinda what we touched on earlier of, even though the king community overall is more accepting, there still is that othering. There still is, you know, in all communities, in all spaces. Are you kinky enough? Are you dominant enough? Are you submissive enough? It's a question that a lot of people carry, and certainly I, I know as well. There are a lot of expectations and assumptions placed on cishet men. we have lived in a culture, we live in a patriarchal culture where men, cishet men hold that privilege. I think though privilege does not protect us from pain, privilege offers us access to resources. Privilege can offer us more safety, certainly in the world, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate the ability to feel pain, to feel that disconnection. This is the cost of patriarchy knocked down is that it hurt guys. It limited guys that box that you had to be in for the patriarchy to work, but behind. In exploring the freedom Mm-hmm. with what you want. It's America, be an individual. And I think because so many of the elders in these spaces had to fight cis men to create those Mm. that again, like when a cis guy walks in, he's gotta walk really soft. Just, you know, kinda accepting that you're triggering some of the people in the room potentially. And do you help them with that? Those guys out there that might be in that space, what's a common way that you help them process that? Yeah, it's, it's a great question and it's a space that I often hold. I, in my work, I will often say start with self, getting really clear with one's self. Who am I? Who am I really? Because as a fellow narrative therapist, Tim, you know, we get should it on all the time. There is who we should be versus who we are. So that first step in that process is starting with self and starting to externalize a lot of the problematic messaging expectations and assumptions of, who he should be or what he needs to do to continue to earn that masculinity card in our culture. Talking very openly about who he is allowing, allowing him to step into a vulnerable space to explore. mm-hmm. So finding people like start with yourself, get your questions, get in alignment, but then also find those people that will conversate with you about it. Find those people that you can check in Mm-hmm. and find those people that'll protect you should. You need to be Yeah, find those people. I think it's both about, you know, finding those people, educating oneself, you know, really educating oneself on consent. We, we, our culture, we do such a disservice to everyone, to everyone involved by not talking more about consent. So really kind of educating oneself, really tapping into and getting clear on one's values and understanding of the self. So often, so, so often I have cishet male clients where I just have to, to remind them like, you are good. You are good. I often find that, you know, a lot of. A a lot of cismen who are, who are aware, who are trying to do the work, who are trying to unlearn the toxicity masculine masculinity in and of itself is not toxic. However, at times it's morphed into this to there is this toxic nature that our culture, right, that has taken on The distinction between masculinity and patriarchy. yes. Yeah. Thank you. But so often I have to, I just have to affirm my clients.'cause the, the ones who are doing the work, the ones who are trying to divest from patriarchy, the ones who are trying to be aware of their privilege, aware of how they show up in these spaces, are often the most fearful. And then that fear is what keeps them from being able to embody who they are. It's fear keeping them from being able to embody their own authenticity. And so a lot of that work is knowing thyself. A lot of that work is managing fear and a lot of that work too. So I am a narrative therapist. We live our lives, the stories we tell about ourselves and the stories that others tell about us, and it, it's a mind XXXX. When we know who we are, we know our narrative, yet our culture continues to project a narrative onto us. That's often the struggle I see with a lot of my cishet men in kink and poly spaces. They have done the work. They know who they are. Yet society continues to right to project or to assume, Hmm. and it is an ongoing fight to stand in one's truth, to stand in, one's integrity, even when Right. Kind of maybe other people. Are trying to, you know, trying to erase or trying to minimize or trying to assume something. Mm-hmm. I've seen most successful in my work, the clients who, who do that work, who start with themselves and get really clear on who they are, they start to build that confidence. They manage that fear, they build that confidence, and that's what allows them to then step into these spaces right as their whole selves, as their whole vulnerable selves. Because people who go into kinky spaces, people who are open with being kinky, they're vulnerable. We live in a sex negative culture. We live in a kink shaming culture. As I mentioned, to be kinky is to be counterculture. And so if you to do that work to really understand the self, I know who I am, regardless of what my culture tries to say, regardless of what others try to say. It gives you a certain energy, it gives you a certain confidence., to then be able to step into these spaces and connect with others who can show up for you and support you. yeah, so, so maybe for the guys that wanna explore these spaces. But are afraid to because of that. I don't wanna be creepy, I don't wanna be shamed, I don't wanna be seen these ways. that inner work first and understanding that kink will be part of you. Right. Everybody's got, everybody's got a little kink somewhere. Like there is, only so weird things get, we've been doing the same things with the same parts for thousands of years. Right. We're pretty inventive. There's not a lot of new ideas Yeah, we are. And thank God. Right? fair enough. You got me blushing now. Look at you. I haven't blushed in 10 Oh, oh, yay. done. Well Yay. Oh Okay. Life. Life is hard. Life is chaotic. Life is expansive. Yeah. Thank God we're inventive. Thank God we're creative. Thank God we are trying to become those expansive individuals to be able to like constantly walk in the gray of everything, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the beauty of life and that's, that's my favorite part of our work is the gray. It's where people really thrive.'cause you come out on the other side with direct Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what's something for listeners are here because they love men and they wanna explore that space with the men, what can they be doing to support those cis guys as they move into that space? Ooh, that's a good question. I mean, number one, I. Number one, always curiosity, be curious, question, ask, wonder, get curious. Right. Huh? Ooh. Yeah. You, you might wanna try this. Yeah. What, what excites you about this? Like, what, what turns you on about this? Or what, what might this give you that you don't have elsewhere in your life? Getting really, really curious and offering a space for them to talk to. Share. Right.. In our culture, there is this expectation or there's this . Assumption, right? That men or mask people need to be stoic. That stoicism is part of masculinity.. When putting that down in play Yeah, ask questions, be really curious. Be really, really curious. Just, you know, huh, huh curiosity and compassion. Often, often in my sessions with my clients, , I talk about, we're gonna put on the compassion goggles, and we're gonna flip down the curiosity lenses. I do that so often. Now I have people who just like roll their eyes at me, but they love it. They love it. They keep coming back because let's just explore. Right. Compassion. Huh? Hmm. Huh. Yeah. Okay. Well, and I think that compassion is so important in these spaces for the women who are with these guys and the queer folks that are with Mm-hmm. because they're afraid of being seen Mm-hmm. and they're afraid of when I make a mistake.'cause everybody makes mistakes. group is going to ostracize me. I am no longer gonna be accepted. I'm gonna get thrown out and I'm going to be seen as, and have a hard time not seeing myself as a Mm-hmm. And so if you've got a man that you love in your life, holding that compassion is yes, holding accountability for the mistakes. Like I wanna be really clear you, no one has to put up with nasty XXX and them that you still love Mm-hmm. so that they can do better. So when I talk about compassion for the longest time in my work as a therapist there was a lot of resistance to, to the idea of compassion when I would suggest it to the clients. To the point, Tim, where I am, just wanted to like scream, like be compassionate to your, like, be kind to yourself. There's so much hesitancy in this idea of self-compassion or giving ourselves compassion, right? Oh, well then I'm, I'm just being nice to myself or I'm giving myself permission. Compassion is not being nice. Compassion is not permission. Compassion is recognition. And in the last few years, a lot of my work has further evolved. When I talk about compassion, I talk about both compassion and accountability. Compassion. I. I did the best I could with the information I had at that time. Now that I am through that experience and I have more information, I'm gonna hold myself accountable going forward. And speaking about accountability in particular. So the timing of this interview, fantastic. Um, I recently got licensed in Washington State, so I made a trip out to Seattle this past weekend 'cause I wanted to get a better understanding of the culture, the K spaces. I went to Subspace, Seattle and I attended. Multiple workshops. Fantastic. I attended Trauma-Informed topping, which was, ooh, amazing. The workshops were done by Maeve McBride, who's a really well known Kickster K and is actually the executive director of Kink Fest 2025. So it's so exciting. I was, you know, I was in my fields. Not only was there trauma-informed topping, but one of the workshops was about transformative accountability. So within the kink community and within kink spaces, reputation is currency, your reputation it in how you play and how you show up in those spaces, it is your currency. And so there's a concept called transformative accountability. It's basically it's a process and a practice of how to hold people in the kink community accountable for their actions. Because as I mentioned, it's not, it, there isn't consent. It's not kink. And there are people who move into king spaces who are predatory. There are people who move into king spaces with malice in their intent. They're intending to, to harm. There are also people who step into king spaces with good intentions, and they still end up violating consent or they end up pushing a boundary too far. It's this process called transformative accountability. And during the workshop there was actually a demo of kind of the different steps and the different pieces, the dialogue between the person, you know, who felt harmed, and the person who perpetrated the harm. And like, whew, I was getting misty-eyed because it was just so powerful to watch, to watch this process of not only apology, but accountability. And so I will also, you know, I'm so glad that you mentioned this, brought this point up. It's both that compassion and that accountability. And what I often say to my clients, if I'm going to do the work to be compassionate to others, let me do the work to be compassionate to myself I'm gonna do both the work to hold others accountable. I'm also gonna do that work to hold myself accountable. Yeah. so definitely compassion is a huge piece. well, and that's the cross section of the, the kind of current trauma of manhood the story. That you're not enough. And in liberal space, you are told consistently of the perfection that's Oh yeah. despite having no I. And it's why I think on the conservative spaces where they're very much in that box, it's why they've kind of cranked up patriarchy is because there, there isn't this space for the repair that's required to have relationship. Right? Every, everybody I talk to clinically and friends, no one's comfortable around a perfect person. No. someone's presenting perfect, people get really uncomfortable. you don't get close with somebody until one of you makes a mistake. There's accountability and Mm-hmm. Otherwise, you're just like trying to keep up with the perfection you're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, when I look out politically there is, there, there is this conservative push for, you know, equating masculinity with power. But in this very restrictive way, this incredibly restrictive and limiting way that not only hurts the people around him, but it also hurts him, as we were talking about earlier, kink can be an avenue to experience masculinity and power and grace and health and Right, and balance and connection. So I guess the, the big takeaway from this conversation that I'm walking away with is, you know, I, I've heard a lot of my, my kink friends talk about the kink community, and it was so wonderful to get you talking and hear how community is complicated and this is where it's beautiful. This is where it's Mm-hmm. this is what we're working on, just like everywhere else. I really hope that that gives the folks listening a lot more freedom to explore whatever parts of themselves in whatever places they need to, to go do so. I hope so. I hope so too. Yeah. So now just to kinda respect your time, it's time to get into Miss Amanda Oh, and ask you the three questions. okay. I'm ready. I, All right. All right. What's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12. That remains true today. so I'm going back, I'm going back in time. I'm putting myself in Churchville Elementary. Back in Pennsylvania and I'm thinking about young Amanda and I'm on the playground and I want to, I wanna play soccer. Like I wanna get in the game. I wanna have fun. I wanna get rough and tumble. But girls or fem people, we can't get rough and tumble because if we stain our clothes or if we mess up our hair or this or that, or this or that, or this or that something I learned is that boys, men mask people. They are encouraged and supported and celebrated in, engaging their aggression, engaging their intensity, engaging their competition. Now not to say that a lot of women, a lot of femme people are competitive, but a truth that I learned was that there's no question a boy or someone who is masculine can become aggressive. But for someone who is not there's more of a thought process that has to come through. There has to be, you have to think more thoroughly about the decisions that you are making. And I feel like that is true. We still live in a culture where it is celebrated for, men or boys or people who are masked to express themselves in more aggressive ways. We are seeing progress in that area when it comes to women's sports. being able to, you know, celebrate all people of all genders you know, experiencing their bodies in, you know, in aggressive or competitive or high intensity ways. But that's definitely a truth. It is encouraged maybe for boys or mask people, but femme people there's a little more complexity and even though we're pushing up against it, it's still there. It's the assumption of aggression. It's the assumption of competitiveness. And I think that speaks to one. It's that box that we keep trying to shove non masculine people into of you're not allowed here, it's also by shoving boys into that box, we're causing a lot of damage. You know, like the basic assumption of aggression with men and how that plays out in school where boys are, I think it's like four, three or four times as likely to be suspended Mm-hmm. for the same offense as a girl for a behavioral issue or an aggressive issue. Mm-hmm. We know that prison sentencing for same Yep. on a gendered scale, men are harsh, more harshly punished. And so there's this but not too violent, but you must learn how to be aggressive. And then shoving wonderfully competitive wonder free, powerful people out of that space because they don't have a penis is kind of stupid. Yeah. It's, it's really, it, it's really stupid. Yeah. And you know, when it comes to progress, you know, for example, you know, Alona Mayer, I, I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly, the rugby player from the Olympics, who's gained a lot of following on, social media, was on Dancing With the Stars. Like I love that she is talking about. Being a woman, being feminine and being able to embody masculinity as well. Being able to embody this expansiveness in being able to be feminine and put on a ball gown and then And go XXXX some Yeah. And then yeah. Yeah. And then get on the field and like, yeah. XXXX some people up with rugby. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just that that expansiveness being able to see that and to be able to see that in mainstream media is newer. And we're starting to see advocates for it. With the freedom of it, it'll, I think it'll be really beautiful when we just start to see more men a claim and doing it on the other end of things so we can really start to embody the spectrum of choice we all have. Wow. Empowering our masculinity or our femininity as appropriate. That's lovely. Yes. I, I love the idea of you as a tomboy. Oh, me as a tomboy. Oh yeah, Maya. some pictures sometime. I'm gonna have a lot of fun with that. I have the floppy jean hat that I would always, I'd always wear it backwards. I love wearing my hat backwards. I felt like a you go. cool kid. Okay. So thank you for that and thank you for tying it into bigger things. The next question for you a little darker. What's a time that pursuit of your gender identity has hurt you? Well, it's a man, duh. Alright. Pun lady. What do you mean? Oh, I love my puns. I love my puns, and my name is so pun bowl wing, Amanda Strong. Amanda, it's great, it's great. Mm-hmm. being named Amanda and being that little girl who was a bit more tomboyish and did express herself a little bit more traditionally masculine in wearing the backwards hat and wearing the baggy, baggy t-shirts. I often got teased. I got teased a lot, when my older sister and her friends would play in sync or Backstreet Boys falling in love with them because that's what you did in the nineties, right? You act as, as if the Backstreet Boys or INS sync were falling in love with you. I was pegged to play Nick Carter. I think in exploring my own gender identity, my own gender expression, what was hard was the teasing and the jokes. When I think about maybe getting older, what was even more harder or more insidious was then my own insecurities. Feeling ins secure about, about wearing things that were maybe a little bit more masculine. Which, So you, you started as this little girl who was a mm-hmm. and had that masculinity and then it got kind of beaten outta you for a little while, and the containment of that really hurt for a long, it did, it, it really hurt. It, it, it, it sucked. I feel like a lot of my own struggle, like a lot of my wounding is around this concept of waiting, of like constant, constantly waiting, waiting to finally be who I am. And, you know, while I am, you know, grateful and fortunate for the family and, you know, the area that I was born into those systems did not fit me. And so when I think back now of that, you know, high schooler who was just waiting, she was just waiting to be in systems that could support her and could ex support her exploration and her expansiveness. And today, now. I am wearing a tie, for a podcast interview. I have pieces of men's clothing that I wear because I like to wear them. I would say that that was the hardest part in coming to my own understanding of my gender. Because I think as well, when we talk about this concept of expression, it's so closely tied to gender. Well, if I'm a woman, then I must express myself in this way. And that is, that was bullXXX. It's just limiting. It's not fun. And so that was maybe kind of the hardest part of being in those systems, being in those spaces where I was teased and I was criticized and then internalized that judgment to hold myself back. Yeah. Now I look back and I'm just like, oh, oh gosh, that poor girl. That that poor girl would've had a lot less cortisol and a lot less time wasted stressing about things that, now I realize don't matter, but, you know, they mattered to her. So compassion and the teasing, the teasing that the ostracized Yeah, the, the, the teasing mattered. It, it did. It did. And, you know, like, you know, compassion for the past self, she did the best she could at the time. And accountability now of, I will, you know, I will not tolerate teasing. I will stand up for myself. I will advocate for myself. That is how I hold myself accountable. It's been really wonderful to see. Thanks. As you're talking about that, I'm thinking back to grad school and when we were in grad school, you hadn't quite kind of found your masculine energy yet. No. And I remember we went out with the cohort to go do something. I can't remember what, and I remember you being your gorgeous self in a lovely dress and looking like you felt awkward in it. Hmm, And now I see you hmm, and I see you wear lovely, very effeminate, very beautiful clothing. I see you standing tall. hmm. I see you empowered. I see you're striding with that. And I, I think that's just a really wonderful example of what happens when we get wholeness with our Yeah. where you can just embrace the parts as they're there, as they come bring them into the world. Yeah. I am so sorry that you got so hurt for so long before you were able to be that. Yeah. I am too. I am too. I I appreciate, I appreciate you sharing that observation and I appreciate you sharing that reflection and, it has been this interesting dynamic going from this, you know, forced femininity to then, you know, being able to explore my masculine side. Being able to explore my masculine energy traits almost then, like allowing me to even feel even more affirmed in my feminine and feel even feeling more confident in my feminine. It's Hmm yeah, it, it, it's been incredibly empowering. And I am, I'm grateful to have had the spaces and the people to be able to, , explore that.'cause many of us don't realize we need those spaces. Yeah. If you don't see something, you can't imagine being something most of yeah. And then there's many of us who realize and recognize we need a space like that but struggle to access it. I think that leads very well into the last question as what's a time that pursuit of your gender has empowered you? And I kind of wanna modify that a little bit. When did the turn start to happen for you, you were able to touch those other parts of yourself, explore them start to embody them? Like what happened? You wanna know the turn? Mm-hmm., the turn was, , , learning of infidelities in my past marriage. there was trust lost with the person I loved, which then led to this. Loss of trust in self and then this loss of trust in the world, this loss of trust in what was supposed to be, Mm-hmm. and in many ways, losing that trust it. What? It's what allowed me the opportunity, , to really better understand who I am and what I want for myself and my relationships and what, who I wanna be in this world. I am not grateful by any means for the trauma that I went through, but I am grateful, , for how I responded and how I made that an opportunity. To better understand myself and my wholeness. Mm-hmm. had an incredible therapist who helped me through it. Mm-hmm. I had a number of different people who really kind of held me through that time, but it was almost the loss of trust in what was supposed to be, is what almost gave me permission to say, who cares what's supposed to be? I am just going to be, I'm going to be who I am. And going through that experience as well, it woke me up to it woke me up to my codependency being a woman. I was essentially raised to be codependent first on my parents. And then, , secondly on my assumed, you know, cis hetero male partner, Mm-hmm. Yeah. And going through that severe, going through a betrayal trauma like that, it made me realize how codependent I was and how much I was centering myself around my partner. And that is what women were often encouraged to do. We're supposed to center ourselves around our man or another person. The cost of containment. Yeah. And so I feel like in realizing that it led me to want to cultivate more independence for myself. And I feel like that journey is almost what allow it set me off. And being able to fully embody and welcome and embrace both the masculine and the feminine energy, , being able to be soft while also strong, I am a Taurus. I definitely do. I align very strongly with my zodiac sign. I'm a bull. I'm a bull, which, you know, when you think about a bull, a big, big bull, right? A big, strong, you know, aggressive bull, you tend to think masculine., I am what's called a fluffy bull. I am strong and I am sturdy, and I'm also soft, and I am nurturing., in many ways I feel like that was a bit of the, the starting point. I love who I am today, and I love who I am becoming, and I love that I can be a man, duh, because that's who I am. That's who I am. I, that will show up in very masculine ways. I'll show up in very feminine ways. Your original question, what's been something that's been exciting about my pursuit of gender? Well, for the last year and a quarter I have moved into performance. I'm a burlesque performer and I'm also a drag performer. And I sought performance out in many ways to as a reclamation, a reclamation of my vulnerability, my exposure. I, I went through a very difficult divorce. attempted to salvage that marriage, but then found out it just no longer fit. And so, I wanted to reclaim, uh, my vulnerability. I wanted to, to reclaim how I was quote unquote exposed. I wanted to have power over it. And so becoming a burlesque performer, not only did it give me this sense of personal empowerment, it's allowed me to reconnect with my sensuality and, and my sexuality. I feel like we talk a lot about sexuality. We don't necessarily talk about sensuality. which, nother episode. which, yeah. Which maybe, which maybe could be another episode. The reason I talk about sensuality is'cause burlesque is very much, it's about the tease, it's about the storytelling. You know, being able to be sparkly, being able to be incredibly femme I love burlesque in that way. And then, you know, also with expanding into drag performances. I've also really loved being able to perform as Freddie Mercury, who, oh my God, such a queer, queer icon embodied both the masculine, the effeminate right. Just incredible. Especially, especially for those shows where I get booked to do both drag and burlesque. I'm having one of those aha moments earlier as I was talking about exploring my gender. Like the beauty of expansiveness and the ability to be expansive, I think has just been just a, a thread through my life and a thread that I'm incredibly grateful for that has been When so affirming to be able to be, you know. To be very secure in, you know, to be very secure in who I am. To know who I am. To love. Yeah. Yeah. To love that I am a woman to love that, you know, I am a bull and that, you know, as a woman, I can be masculine, I can be feminine as a bull, I can be strong and I can muscle through the XXX.' Cause XXX XXXX, there's a lot of XXX to muscle through. And then I can also just be soft and go lay in the flowers. So that performance has really been just a wonderful expression of the parts of yourself and having them go back to back is such like a very clear bell ringing of how both of these things are working in your Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. Well, I know you have to go so that you can start getting ready to go teach a bunch of baby therapist. Uh, is there any final thoughts that you wanna leave people with? I want to share my gratitude to you, Tim. Oh, stop. I wanna say thank you for having the space for cultivating a space to talk about masculinity, honestly right. to challenge maybe the projections or assumptions or expectations that are placed on you. When you talk about being someone who specializes in men's issue, because we need people, we need more people like you who specialize in men, men's issues and can be empathic and nurturing and vulnerable, who can have very honest and real conversations about struggle., it's just so necessary and it's so important. And I've been sharing with a lot of people that, yeah, I'm doing an interview and on masculinity, in the intersect of kink and people are excited. This is so necessary and I think it's incredibly necessary during this time. Hmm. we need healing. We need healing , in so many ways. And being able to have conversations like this that moves us towards healing for ourselves. Certainly I'm, you know, I, I've loved being able to show up in this space and reflect on my own experience and what I see. It has been a healing for me, Hmm. and my sense is it's gonna be incredibly healing for our listeners. So thank you. I hope so. you got to sit there while you say all that and get less triggered from being complimented again. But it's important to say this after all of that, you are one of the people whose conversations over time have led to these conversations. You're one of the people that has been in my life that I could explore these things with. It gave me the comfort start to speak to them, and it's really nice to be able to have you on and share this with Yeah. So thank you so much. Oh, I'm taking that in. I'm taking that in. Thank you.. And that's our first conversation with Amanda. I hope you founder, as insightful and educated as I do. If any of these things surprised you, concerned you, or you just have questions, please make sure to leave a comment so that I can help you address them. And if we get enough of them, maybe we can talk, Amanda into coming back on to answer them for us. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.