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Are you curious about Jewish culture? Do you want to know more about how Jewish culture exhibits and processes their masculinity? If so, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winneke and today we're bringing on Ari Hoffman. He's a clinician with 15 years of experiencing helping individuals and families. He's an interesting guy. He's verbose. I think you're gonna like the energy that he brings to the conversation and explicitly how much personal experience he shares and the limitations of a personal understanding for a very broad frame, for very large culture. I liked it. I. In the last several years, haven't had as much exposure to Jewish culture as I had in the past between my military service where I was around a lot more diverse folks, and just growing up with a few Jewish friends. I feel like I've lost the Mark A. Little bit, and it was really wonderful to talk to Ari to get a better understanding of what's happening for those guys so that I can be a better neighbor to them. So hopefully this helps you do the same. Thanks so much for listening. We're gonna go ahead and get it started. Hi. All right. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. I'm happy to be here. so it was fun like kind of before the interview was recording, hearing about your kind of jump in three years moving out to Israel, coming from the States. I'm kind of curious about the differences in Jewish culture in Denver and in Israel, and kind of what you've noticed since moving. To pick out maybe I could talk, from this place a little bit, when I've been asked in the past what it means to me to be a Jew. And I would say to start with it means a lot of things. but one answer that's come up to me organically is the feeling that no matter where I am, if there are other Jews around, then I'll probably be okay. there's always somebody, almost always, I dunno about Antarctica, but like, there's almost always somebody, like, if I was really in need, I could go to that person. I. For help. um, and that's something that I feel viscerally, as, being a Jew and being part of a, a Jewish community. you know, both the micro, you know, in Denver and then the macro, world, and also the, you know, the macro, you know, Israel. I took my daughter to, an appointment Uh, this is, already now a couple years ago. She was, she might have even been 12 at the time, 12 or 13. and she was gonna take the train home from this appointment. and it was her first time on the train, and this was relatively soon after we moved. I, I was a little bit nervous. She was pretty nervous and we, you know, after her appointment, we went over the whole thing and, I told her something that felt very true at the time and still feels so deeply true., just before she got on the train, I told her, remember, you're surrounded by people who care about you. And I can tell you that walking through the streets of Jerusalem, shall we say Jerusalem is probably the biggest city that I spend my, on time in. Uh, as opposed to Tel Aviv, I live right, right. I live relatively near Jerusalem. the way that people interact, you'd feel like God, these people don't care about anything, uh, much less each other. But the minute that somebody needs Everything stops. suddenly the whole, the whole thing shifts, right? The minute somebody is having a hard time, somebody needs some help, like there's a galvanization. and that is a, um, a very strong. Feeling. So you asked about the differences and uh, and, and I went to the similarity. And that is a similarity. that both in the Jewish community in Denver and also here in the community in Israel, has a very strong sense of if somebody needs something, we get together and we help, Well, and that's something that whenever I'm like guiding my clients on finding community, right? Like so many guys are going through isolation right now and finding that community is really hard. One of the things that I mentioned is that you're not looking for a community in which you like everybody. You're looking for a community where everybody is stepping up for something similar and something where like even if you don't like them, you can respect them. And it sounds like that's pretty integral into your experience as a Jewish man. yeah. Yeah. Totally. can I have your permission to read a quick poem? I was traveling a couple years ago and, And I wrote this poem, and that's very much, uh, apropos to the, uh, to the topic.. Some sort of alchemy occurs walking down the jetway at Logan International to the LL 7 87, which is sitting on the ramp flap set and ready to take us on our journey home when we inch up in line at the concourse and approach the ticket scanning kiosk. We are citizens of the world. All of us walking our path and interacting with the world as we do, and as we pass the aircraft doors with emergency opening instructions written on the outside in both English and Hebrew, we walk into a big family reunion with all of its loving and sometimes claustrophobic warmth. There are the relatives who are so happy to see everyone, the relatives who sit in stoic silence the relatives who want to catch up with everyone's news, and the relatives who only want to hang out with the people they're tight with. There are the relatives who are fun to hang out with, and the ones that are a bit cringey, there are the relatives we want to talk to and get to know better, and the relatives who make us want to walk the other way. There are a lot of relatives we don't know, but that's okay because we know we're related. We don't even know their names, but we know that we would trust them to watch our most treasured belongings, like our carry-on bags, or even our children, at least for a couple minutes, because their family and that goes deep. The same dynamics present in our immediate families replicate themselves on a bigger scale. The inspiringly lovely things that give us long-term hope for this family, along with the frustrating behavior that makes us wonder how this many people in our family are functional enough to get themselves into the same place at the same time. I'm sitting in a seat on a 7, 8, 7 in Boston surrounded by people who care about me. I'm surrounded by people who care about me. My family cares about Hmm, that seems to answer that question pretty well. It does. It does. And you're exactly right. Now this, conversation about community is a, is one that is, that is near and dear to me. and I also, you know, I have like a little bit of privilege there. I don't know what it's like to not be in community. That is definitely a place where I see privilege. It's also, there's definitely times it's been kind of a pain in my ass. yeah. The problem with being in a community is occasionally you have to show up when it's inconvenient. So when it's inconvenient, there are definitely community norms, that I think are so important for the structural integrity of the community. And at the same time, totally, you I, I can, you know, rub me the wrong way sometimes. Yeah. I think that's, one of the big things about American individualism, like we accepting that it's got, its good and it's got, its bad, right? Like we got to the moon, we tend to do better in business and. We tend to be pretty bad at community as like just white American culture. So I'm glad that you have that, man. I'm honestly jealous of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I Yeah. Like I said, I think that the, claustrophobic warmth from the poem to me is a, good, like both, you know, like, yes, warm, yes. Loving, and yes. Like, get me outta here sometimes, you know? We had an interview with Alejandro and he came on to kind of share about machismo and family culture within the Hispanic culture, and it's that I'm in a collectivist culture. This supports me these ways, and I can be very alone in that culture when it's rubbing me wrong. And it sounds like that's fairly similar with where you're sitting. That is definitely Yeah. Yes. And at the same time, I wouldn't trade Well, it. sounds like it's worth the cost. uh, I would have, oh, for sure, for sure. It's worth the cost. I was talking to, my son asked me, the other day, he asked me, what is an atheist? Jews who, who may not believe in God. There are definitely people I know who, uh, have ambiguous feelings about God, but absolutely will maintain the norms of being in this community because, because it's, it's it's cultural expression, not just a religious expression. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I don't know if I, if I, if I feel totally comfortable about being recorded to say what I'm about to say, but it's, I had this realization, within the last couple years or so. so in the, in, in the synagogue, in many synagogues, there's a very strict role of not talking Right People. We come to the synagogue, to talk to God, to pray, And at the same time, I think that there's a difference between a, a relationship with God and a relationship with religion, spirituality, and religion, shall we say. and uh, I had this kind of a epiphany, which was something like, when we get together to pray in as a community that's a religious experience, that is often not a spiritual experience. And if it's a religious experience, communal experience, we should totally talk. Yeah. Talk like is it disrespectful? It is. But are people doing it? Absolutely they are. And like, you know, it's one, it's one side of it. And, and I could see the argument to be made to. Well, I mean, that's the, that's the thing about social norms and particularly coming from like an American individual's perspective, is they're not automatically accepted in most cases, which means that sometimes you break 'em, not all the time, not enough to be a jackass, but like every now and then, it's Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yes, totally. Well, I, I feel like I could talk to you about community stuff all day and every day, but I, wanna make sure that the, the folks listening to this get some more information about like how to be better neighbors and how to get a better understanding of, the Jewish people in their communities. So one of the things that I'm asking for folks from different cultures than me that have been doing the job for a minute is, what's a key feature of masculinity? That's different in your culture than in like basic American white culture? Like how is that expressed differently? Hmm. Think about that for a minute. What? I'm just gonna say the question back. Make sure I got it. What is different about masculinity in my culture than in, than in basic kind of white Mm-hmm. I'm sort of fascinatingly finding this hard question to answer. let me try a couple things and we'll see how they sound coming outta my mouth, and then I'll de I'll decide if I like good. There's something coming up to me about, respecting Okay.. One finds more defined gender roles, in more Orthodox Jewish Mm-hmm. In America all I would say also in Israel, and when I say more defined, it's not like, archaic. It's not like, you know, women stay home, you know, with the children and that's all they do, and they, they're not allowed out of the house and like, nothing at all like that. there are Orthodox, Jewish women both, in America and Israel that, that are, doing almost anything you can think of, they are Well, and it, it sounds like kind of tied to that, what we were talking about earlier, where you've got community and expectations, and within the Jewish community, there are expectations of a father and a husband that are more stringent than they are necessarily like most American culture. yeah. Stringent is one word I would say defined as an, you know, it's just a little bit more defined is another word. and there's a lot of, Well, you know, I'm glad you can edit podcasts, man. I'm telling you. Well, people like a conversation too, man. It's okay. You're gonna be perfect. yeah, it just, well, maybe I'll talk a little bit about what's, what I'm finding challenging about this. Everything that I'm thinking of it feels Just an American dude thing. you know, does it, Just feels like an American dude thing. Yeah, exactly. It feels like an American new thing and also doesn't necessarily feel, like it's applicable, you know, across the board, that you're gonna walk into any orthodox Jewish household in America and find this, this Well, are there any differences you see in the clients you work with when you're working with, Jews and non-Jews? Like when you're doing your family work, are there differences that are kind of consistent? I could, I could say this. Here's, here's something that's, that's kind of interesting. There are different expectations, in Jewish law and Jewish custom for men and for women men. And I will say this to the world, I don't, I don't comply with this particular expectation, but many admit for not most Orthodox Jewish men do, men are expected to pray three times a day. Women maybe once. And maybe that may not even be an expectation. Some, some people see it, some women see that as an expectation, some don't. and so there's definitely this element where religious practice. it feels like a pretty masculine oriented thing, not that women are not practicing, women are absolutely practicing, they're practicing, they are studying studying. Torah is a very big part of being a Jew in general, and especially, Jews who consider themselves affiliated, consider themselves, you know, who, who strongly identify with their Judaism. studying Torah is a big deal and different types of, of observance are. and I would think especially in, what we might call observant Jewish households. men are gonna be doing certain elements of practice that much more and are called upon to practice that much more, right? So in terms of the, um, the services, that we do, the prayers, in most. I'll just use kind of a classical classic term observant, which generally is, we'll call orthodox. There are many different definitions you could Well, and there's a, huge range in how an individual experiences these things. Exactly. But if you mainstream Orthodox, uh, Jewish synagogue, the men are gonna be, conducting the vast majority, if not the entirety of the Mm-hmm. And I think that there's, um, there's, a, responsibility, which sometimes feels like a privilege and sometimes feels like a burden, to infuse the family with, like, you know, to be a representative of the, how the religious practices are observed, to infuse the family with Yeah, with, different lessons from. From, you know, of Jewish ethos and, and from the, from the Bible. that is, that definitely seems to be something that is a little more one, it sounds a lot like what I hear my Protestant clients who take their church seriously, where they come in, where the men is kind of the, you know, leader of the household in faith, right? Like you're you're the leader of the household, you're gonna do these things. And the variation in that within that community is gargantuan, depending on the church, depending on the person. And I imagine for the US it's even more varied because now we have female rabbis, we, depending on the congregation and, or I'm sorry. I think congregation is the incorrect word. Okay, thanks. and so it sounds like it's just, since it's so intrinsically tied between the religion and Jewish culture, where those lines are, gets a little bit more blurred., yes, yes. Well, that, that's actually kind of an interesting point because,, you're really touching on, uh, on what I would say is, important and dangerous, discussion about Jewish Mm-hmm. and Jewish practice, which is the, how it's defined and where gender roles come in there. So, I'll talk about that a little bit. And I think, I'm just kinda thinking about this for myself. I'm realizing, really speaking only from my own experience is probably the, uh, most authority that I can, that I can offer. So I grew up. Uh, what you could call modern Orthodox. Okay. Now, modern Orthodox, how to define modern Orthodox, it is its own, its own big question, how one defines modern Orthodox, but modern Orthodox is, I think it's really a matter of where on the spectrum are you, as in, in terms of how cloistered we are versus how integrated with the world around us that we're okay. And that I think is a really effective way to kind of see, you know, to kind of identify where we are in the spectrum. So modern Orthodox generally is identified by keeping Mm-hmm. keeping the Sabbath, and also being very involved in the world. You'll find that modern Orthodox people are, very happy to go to university. very happy to get jobs out in the world. Very happy to be very integrated with the outside world and the outside world, meaning the non-Jewish world or the world that is not the, the Orthodox community. in modern Orthodox, households, in terms of gender roles, you're still gonna have the kind of these classic, male centric observance of different religious practices because that is, as it is prescribed in the Torah, in the, in the Old Testament. however, you're gonna see a lot more involvement, a lot more, power, a lot less power differential between, men and women in modern orthodox households. Certainly in, in my house. Growing up, the power differential between my father and my mother definitely kind of went like that, you know, up and down, versus a very solid, my father's a power up and my mother's a power down. That was not at all the house that I grew up in, as I grew older, kind of winded my way through all sorts of different things and ended up in in a, what you could call an ultra orthodox, the Jewish boys boarding school. that was just as a, I said boys only very separate. I spent four years in a dorm with guys. the dorm was on, uh, west Colfax. the school was a block off of West Coax, and the dorm was literally on coax and Perry, the building has since been taken down. It's, an apartment Sucks getting old. Huh? He'll lose things from our childhoods. Just go away over time. I, I mean I, the stories I could tell you from living in a dorm with boys only for four years, it's just like, you know, Interesting. Smells for sure. you knew that the ninth and 10th grade rooms you should never go into as one of my rabbis once said, ninth graders still need Yeah. Well, I think like it's, it's, it's interesting to me when we talk about, kinda separating out boys and education from girls because there's people making that push now that because, boys develop slower that they should separate 'em out. And I think there's pros and cons and I think it really, really matters on the culture in which they're coming from. Right. So, like coming to a, Jewish boarding school that are boys only is gonna be very different than just like a military school that we're throwing boys into. I absolutely agree with you, and I think having a theme that it centered around is a big deal. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you a quick story. So, I said I weed my way through. I actually got kicked out of a bunch of schools in middle school, and ended up in George Washington High School, in Denver Mm-hmm. a year Now, I'd never been to a public school before. I went to Jewish schools my whole life until I got kicked out of all the schools and didn't have a, didn't have a choice. so ninth grade I went to, I went to dw and I have to tell, I learned so much. I learned so much about the world, learned so much about. Different people. I didn't learn a lot academically, but I learned an enormous amount about people, which is very, very, very valuable to me. a quick interjection here, despite being, you know, modern Orthodox and in this community and that, a strong message from my parents was, respect for every human being, no matter what. And so this was a really, uh, fascinating and great experience for me. It's actually funny, my, that was my dad's my, that's where my dad went to high school, was gw. so anyways, so I go to GW for a year and I learned so much and, really seeing, you know, how, how people my age, you know, how the other half is living in it or really the other Yeah. is living. and then the immediately following that, next year in 10th grade, I go to this, this school, it's called the Yeshiva in Hebrew. And I remember my first Sabbath there, first weekend, Saturday afternoon. So Saturday morning we have, you know, services and then we have a meal or Sabbath meal. Then Saturday afternoon the dean of the, of the yeshiva of the school called the Ro Yeshiva, the head of the Yeshiva he speaks, that's his time. He gives, he gives a, you know, a 30, 45 minute lecture every Saturday afternoon Mm-hmm. evening. And we're all crowded. Not crowded, but we're all, we're all in the, uh, study hall. Everybody kind of sitting in rows. Everybody's sitting. And the dean is a gentleman who's, I don't know, five, five, maybe five I'm not a big guy. Short guy. Not a big guy at all. he comes in, we're all sitting down, he sits down at his place, which is all the way at the, at the head of the, it's kind of a long hall, so it's at the, at the front of the hall. He stands up and 100 young men who not 15 minutes before were yelling at each other and, you know, probably fighting or whatever. Doing the whole, you know, guy stuff, everybody stands up in unison, in respect, sits down in unison and you could hear a pin drop and coming from, not that there's anything wrong with, you know, you know, with the people that I got to experience in dw, but there was not that kind of uniform Mm-hmm. for adults or for certain adults anyway. And I remember seeing that. Mm-hmm. that's Well, well, and that's Like all these crazy Yeah. All these crazy teenage boys. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me, I, when I was in Korea, in the Air Force is when I got promoted and a friend of mine was living out there with me, and so he was one of the only civilians that got to come to my promotion ceremony. And so he's in a room with all these military guys and. In the military, right? When a commander walks in, somebody yells 10 Hut and everybody immediate. It's just like that. Everybody stops what they're doing snaps to attention until they're released. And he had never been around that or seen it before. And so I remember seeing him like jump and like it really freaked him out to just watch all the chaos in the room. All the masculine energy you just like, stop. It's intense. Yes. It, it is intense. And I think there's something so powerful about the, the containing and focusing of masculine energy like that. Well it's, it's interesting to me because there's a, it's a debate I see my friends have it's debates that like my clients have within themselves as fathers is what is an appropriate amount of respect and what is too much deference from a child. Is it, you've got your, your Southern folks who are still like, no, sir. Ma'am. If they're older than you, there's the respect for the age. And then there's my kind of like middle class liberal white friends and clients who are like, my kids shouldn't respect you just 'cause you're an adult. You know, they should be able to argue with you and everything in between. And no one really seems to have the answer on what is best. And so it sounds like within that, that cultural context, it's really helpful because now it's just known by, by our culture, this is what happens and there's just a security of knowledge that that's okay and it's healthy. Yes. Yes. In grad school, I studied, I, I got my master's in couples and family counseling, and I found myself drawn toward structural family counseling, which is Salvador Mnuchin. Harriet Ponte. and I think some of what was attractive to me about that is, the way that I understood it was there is a, there needs to be a structure. There needs to be a, a vessel that holds what's going on, that holds the chaos and craziness of the family. There needs to be a vessel there. And, and that is a, a way of looking at things that has, stayed true for me, throughout, throughout my career. and something that I definitely have conveyed countless times to families that I've worked with. So I can't, certainly can't say that this is, the truth that everybody should, but it's how you work and how you help I definitely, but it's how you work and help people. it's how I work and help people. and I think that it it to me, when we create a vessel. Then we can get crazy within that vessel. We can get nuts within that vessel. Right? But if there is no vessel, then our craziness can end up being destructive. But when there is a vessel that's, that, that's clear and defined, then you know, then that can hold, our chaos. uh that's the struggle within individualistic culture, families is a family still needs structure, but instead it's gotta be negotiated from the top down. Since we don't have the cultural context of like what we're walking into and deciding what we're taking or not, we've gotta build everything from the ground up. And so many guys that I, right. We have to make it Yeah. well and just negotiate it within the family and that's gonna be more tricky. But once it's done, I always, kind of frame it for my clients as your lane in their lane. Right, like what's your lane in the household? What's their lane in the household? How do you support each other's lanes without over like overcrossing? And how do you have accountability when one of you isn't doing the thing that needs to be done in that lane? Totally. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No, it's one thing that I, that I really like, which I can say honestly, I, I have not been strict about with my own children, but I think it really is a good thing and, and I would imagine would be anathema to a lot of people. Maybe hearing this is, the expectation that I, I still do the some with my kids that, when I come home right now I work nights, so it doesn't really apply as much.'cause when I go home, everybody's asleep. But if I'm at work and I, I come home and, you know, my kids are in the house, they're doing stuff or whatever, I expect them to stop and at the very least, they should stop what they're doing. Make eye contact with me Yeah. I would say at the most, if I was being just a little bit more strict, I would have them stand up and say hello, you know, come and gimme a hug, come and say hello, what? Like, whatever. But like, at the very least, stop. Right. I'm, you know, and again, I, I get that this is, you know, for some people this would be like, that feels totally not okay. And that, you know, I respect that. But for me it's like, Mm-hmm. The father, right? My role deserves Yes. right? Just right. And so I'm, I'm your father. When I come in, you stop, you say, hello, acknowledge me. It's how it is. and I appreciate that. And, and I feel like it, it maintains, it maintains a little bit of that, vessel that we're Well, and I think this is where the, the, acknowledgement of status and earned status, I. Like, I'm your father. This is the house that I'm providing you. I'm the adult that's feeding you. You can stand up or say hello to me, but at minimum you need to acknowledge when I'm here and And, and by the way, for, for women too. For for too. I think that's just an adult child thing for a lot of folks. And it's one of the things I struggle with being from the outside is that, you know, when I'm hanging out with my friends and their kids don't acknowledge other people, other adults in the room'cause they're just little kids in their own little bubble or whatever. It's always a little uncomfortable for me because how I was raised and like a biker, chaotic partying household was, if you were a child and adult came in the room, you said hi. Do you know what I mean? Not even like a subservient or whatever, but like, oh, there's, hey. Sure. Great. You acknowledge? It's just like a polite thing to do when someone enters a room. Yeah. It's just, you're a kid, so if you don't do it, you get whopped. right, right. Absolutely. And coming back to your original question about like differences between, you know, maybe between Jewish males versus maybe, uh, whatever one might call a standard, you know, white American male. I, maybe I'll, add an Israeli element into this which is, and even some of my own experience and, kind of a little bit of a collage here, something that was both challenging to me and an enjoyable challenge, uncomfortable, but, but still enjoyable in moving to Israel is the demand to Mm-hmm. You don't really get anywhere in Israel. Without showing up, really just making, making your voice heard. I've been training in, , an approach to psychotherapy called Hakomi., the primary training is two years, and I did one year in Boulder, , just before Corona, and I'm doing my second year here in Israel. Nobody raises their hands. Oh, Nobody. a negotiation of space constantly. there's a discussion. you show If you don't fill some space in that room, then you're not in that room, but you have to project that. Exactly. And, and it is true in a class, it is true in a conversation, it is true in driving. You really have to take up your space. And if you don't, somebody else will gladly take it up for And and from what you're saying, that's more of an Israeli Jewish cultural thing than it is a US Jewish cultural thing. One could even say more of an Israeli thing than a US thing. at least. At least that's, that's my experience. Well, it's one of the things I remembered when I would go over a friend's house as like a teenager in my early twenties and I had a Jewish friend, there were arguments at the table, which was foreign to me. Like, you did not argue with parents. You, you could try. But there was generally like a kibosh on that, you know, if there was something that came up and that really threw me for a loop for a little bit. And it sounds like that's almost a You. of that, like, Uh, I'd get wa as a kid if I like argued with my father at 10. Totally, and I love that you brought that up because I was thinking about that, and that is absolutely an integral part of, again, of some sects or some, you know, some parts of the Jewish community. so, you know, take that scene again from where the dean comes in and everybody stands up, and then it's very, very clear hierarchy, very regimented. And then add this other cultural element, which is this twice a year, we would have a test with that same rabbi, with the dean of the, of the whole school. A extremely Mm-hmm. and the test was me and my study partner. The test was Mm-hmm. On some specific piece of the Talmud that we had been studying, and it would be me and my study partner across the table from each other, like you and I are now. And then the rabbi at the head of the table. And he would ask us to read and ask us to translate and ask us questions. Now how the test was graded, first of all, nobody ever got a hundred because you can't be perfect. So that, that's, that's rule number one. Rule number two was that the only way to get, you know, the, the, there were stories about people who got 90 eights and 90 nines, and the only way to get a really, really high score really was to prove the rabbi Yeah. So you could out argue the rabbi. Mm-hmm. So there's this very strong culture of Ask it within Judaism of Mm-hmm. Of arguing. So I would say the more like, you know, the more towards the observant, observing, kosher, observing, observing the Sabbath that folks are, the more likely you are go to any table usually on a Friday night, and you will hear fathers and sons yelling at each other. And you know what? And, and, and it's, there's nothing disrespectful about it. It's just a norm there. something to, it's norm and it's beautiful and it's fun and it's very sharpening, right? And this is really about when I went into yeshiva, when I went into the school, we were told. we're gonna learn how to think and so much of the way that, the Torah is approached and that Judaism is approached is in the process of an argument. And so, right, the arguments, are not, generally not disrespectful, not, not in any way personal. Right. and, and, and they are expected. I have, depending on when my study partner is in the military, he, he's in the military, so depending on when he is called up or not. we have a weekly study session, studying the Talmud, and it hasn't been a good study session if I didn't, you know, if, if, if we didn't start yelling at each other at, at some point or another. Um, and I, I'll cultural norm, right? Totally. But I'll just add one more element to that because I think to me, this is where the value is when the argument is about. How best to do something that is important to both of us, or how best to understand something that is important to you and important to me. Then the argument is very, is a very building and, uh, positive Yeah. We're hashing it out, beating to the best outcome together. Exactly. Exactly. But when it becomes personal, right? When it becomes a Mm-hmm. that becomes destructive. But I can tell you that, you get these a hundred boys, you go into, into that study hall on a regular weeknight right now, this evening at about seven 30, you walk into that study hall and you're gonna see, you know, 70, 80, 90 boys yelling at each other, yelling at the rabbi. The rabbi yelling back at them, and there is no ill will whatsoever. Yeah, it's funny, I, it, it kind of reminds me of first responder culture a little bit where ball busting, right? There's things, when you're a bunch of guys, you're kind of testing each other a little bit of like, if you can't take this, why would I trust you to back me up in a fire, right? If you're this fragile, why would I trust you with these things? But there is a distinction between ball busting and picking a fight, being rude, crossing lines, and and I think this is where people struggle is from the outside, it just looks like a bunch of dudes yelling. It just looks like a bunch of guys being mean to each other, versus there's rules that you don't know that they do. And if you observe long enough, you'll start to figure'em out and be able to join. Yes, yes. I, I think there is definitely that element. I actually volunteer on a, on an ambulance once in a while, , as well. So I have a, just a little bit, , of that. But but I think the way that I've experienced it is a lot more about. We can get to the best conclusion if we bring our full selves towards getting to that conclusion. If you and I argue, let's say we're gonna argue about the best approach to family therapy. Now I might be structural and you might be experiential or something like that, or, you know, or, or whatever. Or, or, or the best way to get drunk, right? I'm gonna say beer all the way. This is the, this is the right way to do it. And you're gonna say no single malt scotch. All the way. Like, okay. Like, right. First of all, both there's, there's gonna always gonna be truth to both. But when we have this shared goal it becomes. You know, and we are, it is demanded of us to bring our full selves to this relationship, to this discussion. We can then generally trust that whatever came out of that discussion is really a beautiful thing. It's really this, you know, this hole that is greater than the sum of our parts. So I'm, I'm thinking a lot about if I was just on a job and I have a, a, Jewish person I'm working with and they're raised in this environment where out of respect, we, we argue out ideas but I am in this place where I'm very like hierarchical, where like my idea is the idea and you ask, you don't tell. And I stifle that person. I'm missing a lot of opportunity there. And it sounds like just a big culture miss in the communities that are interacting right there. Absolutely. And, and I can tell you that whatever I've just described to you in Israel, you have to multiply it by 10 or maybe even a hundred. In Israel, you get pulled over by a cop. That is your opportunity to argue with the cop. So This is not gonna fly here. everybody's all right. Exactly. Exactly. But everybody expects it here, you know? and it's so fascinating because there's such strong hierarchy in some elements of the culture, especially in the religious elements of the culture. And at the very same time, there's also this, this expectation. Of course, I'm gonna argue with you. I have to argue with you, right? And so, yes, definitely in the, in the scenario that, that you described, especially if you are the power up, and it is very likely. the Jewish guy, I, I absolutely can tell you that I've had this experience happen where I've seen an opportunity, oh, this is a good place for me to throw in my 2 cents because by doing so, we're going to get to a better outcome for all of us. Where other people are like, you know, the somatic expression to me is like, Gasp. you're, you're arguing with, you Just do what I like, you know, I, I find that it makes some people very, very uncomfortable. I both have respect for it, recognizing that, you know, some people very much not brought up in this culture. And at the same time, I feel a lot of sadness and frustration around it because in my mind it's like, look, I, I, I don't care about being right. I care about the product that comes from when you sharpen my knife by arguing with me and I sharpen your knife by arguing with you. And then we have really sharp knives and then we can like cut vegetables, you know, all Well I think that's why it's so important and, and we're coming back around to that here, particularly around like masculine space, right? The men's groups are kind of taken off. Uh, there there's more and more call for things where like men can have room and it's because when a bunch of guys are in a room and there's no women there, they behave differently. And I imagine when it's an entire community of Jewish guys, there's more freedom for that. And then when we come together, the strength of America is, we're a good salad. We've gotta be able to negotiate what the different cultural layers are that are in the room and how we're gonna move forward together. But there needs to be that space where that whole part of ourself gets to be expressed. Otherwise that pain doesn't ever heal because it is, it's painful to be in a multicultural environment. You there, you absolutely have to contain parts of yourself to function in that group and personally I think that gets us to some really interesting places and good things. But that balance of where's there space for me to have this part of myself is important. Yes. I, I absolutely agree with you. what you're talking about brought up for me a conversation that I had recently. So, uh, we recently started a neighborhood watch within the small settlement where I live. I had a shift with with an acquaintance, a friend of mine, but a guy I, I don't, I didn't know very well before, before this evening. And, we started talking about politics and turns out that his, his approach to politics is, is almost a 180 from my approach to politics. And one thing that I really appreciated about the conversation was where I said something that was maybe a little bit personal, not at him, but maybe at, president Trump or one of the politicians in Israel, I don't even remember who it was. And he stalked me and he said, Ari, let's focus on ideas. We don't have to talk Mm-hmm. And that was so just so lovely to me. Yeah. Did he call me out? Sure. Do I like being called out? Of course not. You know, but at the same time it was like, you know, a refocus of like, if we're gonna maintain this approach and if we're gonna maintain the, the vessel of being able to argue and yell at each other. And we were absolutely yelling at each other, you know, about, about, about these topics. Let's keep it to ideas. Let's keep it in a format where we are trying to achieve the best understanding, the best approach, uh, rather than getting Yeah, it's just some negotiated norms, right? If they, if no one's calling anybody out for things that make them uncomfortable, things that aren't okay. There's no negotiation of norms within a group and it sounds like you both showed up since it was a neighborhood watch thing with the respect of your are my neighbor, so if we, we don't agree on here, we're at least neighbors and we're showing up for our community so we can have this out a little bit more than we maybe would otherwise. That sounds lovely. I. Yes. Yes. Oh yeah. It's great. And, I'm a therapist and both of my, I have two younger brothers. They're both, one is, in the mental health field and, and, um, is a psychologist. And the other was, has an MSW but is working, um, outside of the mental health field. And my father was also a therapist and people used to say, oh, , I'd love to go to your dinner table. and our dinner table was absolutely full of, you know, hassling each other and, and, and arguing with each other and, and then look, you know, there's certainly, you know, we're, we're just like every other human being. We hurt each other and families and the whole thing. But there's definitely this element of, of engagement a demand of full engagement. Show up, take up your space. Or that space won't be there for you. yeah. I mean, I was in the family more so the spaces there, but like, definitely within community. show up and take up your space. You know, we have this line, that's pretty familiar. It's in the therapy world. if I can't trust your, no, how can I trust your, yes. And I would say in this scenario, it's a little bit the opposite. It's more like if I can't trust your, yes, how can I trust your no, you know, if you're not gonna show up, how can I trust you? Like, you know, how can I trust what you're saying if you're not gonna like, make your presence felt a little bit. Well, I, I think that's a good transition for kind of one of the last questions before I, I just get to personal questions for you at the end is, one of the things I see a lot of is guys are resistant to going to family and couples therapy. And the main reason for that is whenever I talk to guys who go, a lot of time it's this sole, emotionally focused therapy push where they feel like they're just getting ganged up on by two people, telling them they're feeling wrong instead of some kind of negotiated structure tools. Something that's gonna help their relationship marriage get better. If you were gonna help a friend find a family therapist, couples therapist, how would you help 'em find one that has a guy they would feel more secure and, and more effective in, in that space? it's a question that makes me a little bit sad, because. Only because I haven't done enough of my own homework, I would say to find the guide that I would, or to find not only the guide, but the per the person. there are a couple, a couple therapists that I, that I like, that I will refer people to. but if I could, if I could create my best couples therapist, if I could create the ideal couples therapist, especially, one that could help make a guy, you know, feel comfortable, you know, based on how I Mm-hmm. things. It would be somebody who can get a little bit a little bit into Mm-hmm. right? It would be somebody who can, who can help a guy show up in, in the couple's therapy and just be like, all right. Okay. No bullshit. Quit the bullshit. Let's, let's, let's, let's get in here, let's, let's play this with, you know, let's play with this together a little bit, right? So that so that we can go through that emotion focused, process. But we can go through it in a format that is, that is very, that is, uh, normal and okay. Right? You do not have to speak in a really soft voice and tell me how that feels or where that shows up. That is not necessary at all in therapy. Is it sometimes helpful? Sure. It is. Do I use it all the time? is it requisite? Absolutely not. Right? I'm gonna just add one more quick, , an anecdote from my experience in the yeshiva in the, in the boarding school. The scene is a classroom and we're discussing some part of the Talmud, right? That's really, so much of this is focused around the Talmud. I, if you open any page of Talmud, if you have any idea what you're looking at, you're gonna see the Talmud I believe it's 2,600 pages of arguments, right? Arguments, that tracks. We didn't, we, we didn't make this up, right? Rabbis have been doing this for, you know, thousands of years already. So anyway, so we're, we're in a classroom, we're discussing some part of the Talmud, and I raised my hand and I ask a question. One of the biggest compliments that my rabbi could say to me is this, Ari, you're asking good, but ask better. Right. What does that do for me that says, Ari, I believe in you. Fucking show up, man. Get over here. Take up your space. Do it. I believe you can do it. I know you can do it. Make it happen. Show up. Yeah. And it's such a powerful thing. And so if I could create my ideal couple's therapist, you know, for, you know, to, to support a man in his masculinity, it would be something like that. You and I are here. I, there's no, there's no power difference, right? I'm just a guy just like you. I just happen to have a lot of education in this area and I'm here to support you showing up in the fullest extent that you possibly can. I want your rainbow to just like, just boom, right? I want your sun to shine so bright, because if your sun is not shining, what whatcha even doing? Your partner's there like waiting for you to show up. And you're not showing up yet, so come, let's do it together. let's show so somebody who's got some directiveness and some forcefulness of personality that can use that to invite yours to come out a little bit. EE exactly. And can do that while, while maintaining empathy and while maintaining a supportive, therapeutic vessel., I would say it's not an easy thing. I don't think there's anything about couples therapy that's, that's easy. But it's a beautiful, a really, really beautiful thing. And I would just add a small thing there, which is, there's an element, because this is such a theme of stuff that I work with as a couple's therapist, there's an element of helping a man show up and feel that he's showing up without having to Mm-hmm. Yeah. The classic, the classic wine. It's not about the nails. Some people have seen that video. It's cute. It's great. It's, it's really right to help a man be able to show up and be present, right? That you can be present and not fix things at the very same time. You can be a, the full man that you are, and also not feel like you have to, you know, get everything in order, right? Just to show up in your vulnerability, in your, in your questions, in your emotions. To me, that is a beautiful I think that's the, the trick with kinda a, a masculine love and all the reading that I, that I've been going through and what I've seen in my practices, men want to love through service in, in a lot of cases, and that's where that fixing comes in, because that's the easiest way to be of service and it's hard to accept that your partner is with you because being there in your presence is of service all by itself. Right. Yes. Yes, yes, exactly. I'll just, I'll just add something to there that this makes me think about, which is one of my favorite parts of the Jewish wedding is, at most Jewish weddings, the bride will walk around the groom seven times before the actual legal part of the ceremony where the groom puts the ring on the bride's finger. And the walking around the groom seven times is similar to, for those, for those who are familiar with the Old Testament, it's also an, an old, song. Joshua Fit the Battle of Je Jericho. Jericho. And the walls came in down, right? So in the Old Testament, Joshua walks around the city of Jericho seven times and blows trumpets, and then the walls come down, right? And there's some really like. Very powerful spine tingling stuff, right? That's like the, the, the bride is walking around the hus, the, the groom. It's like, I know you've got walls, baby. I'm coming in. And I really, I'm coming in. Let's do this. Can we do this with vulnerability? Can you bring your power? Can you bring your intensity? Can you bring your, you know, everything of who you are into this relationship? The bride is as if saying, this is what I want. I want you, right? I don't want some like, you know, facsimile of you. I don't want the little bit of you that you dangle for me. In the times between when you're off, you know, doing your thing. I want you, I want you to show up in relationship. And I think it's a very powerful ideal that's No, I really, I really like the imagery of that and how it connects. So if they're looking for a couples therapists, right? You're talking about what they're looking for once they're in the room with them, where they, if you've got this directive approach where they've got some energetic, like, come in with me. Let's go. If I'm reading through profiles on Psychology Today or something, what am I looking for that's gonna tell me that this person might be that person? So I'll, I'll say two things about this. First of all, , the couple therapist that my wife and I used for a long time, , is a woman. And I think it's important that, , to say that, you, you don't need a guy a hundred therapist for a guy. I, I think that. For a person, you know, it kind of takes one to know one a little bit, So this. Um, if a person is looking, So they just need to go try some folks. Get in there and see what feels right. I. Well, I, I think that's it. But, if you're reading through, and by the way, God bless them. I think we need a consultant just to help people write, their Psychology Today Accurate.' cause Yes, yes. But, but I, but I would say this for a person who's going to invite another person to show up, be authentic, be vulnerable, you know, really connect with some of that, that deep stuff, I think that what, what, what I would encourage people to look for, see if you can find that even an inkling of that in the Psychology Today profile. despite the fact that maybe we're not always great at expressing that we being therapists but some element of Mm-hmm. some element of, of what that feels like. Authenticity, that feels like somebody is cutting through the bullshit a little bit and showing up as they are. To me, that's gonna be a person that you're more likely to have a, a nourishing experience. that reminds me of just kinda the difference between a senior therapist and a junior therapist a little bit. Like I remember in training, I went and there was a woman who was awesome and she specialized in veterans. And so when I was in my practicum, I was like, Jill, please come and watch a session and let me know, like this is what I'm gonna be doing. Let's go. And she's like, okay. She comes, she watches it and I'm all excited and she's like, yeah, I don't really do it like that. You're fine. Like, that doesn't help me. What the hell are you talking about? She's like, yeah, I don't sound like that anymore. I've been doing this 10 years. I don't know what you mean. She's like, okay, well come, come and sit in through one of my sessions. And that was the beauty of the program, right? You went through Cuse program. There was a lot of versatility and options for these things, and I remember watching her in awe that she didn't sound any different talking to her client than she sounded talking to me. I was like, where's the therapist voice in there? And I, and I, and I think that's one of the things about junior clinicians is that you're still finding how to bring that therapist into your voice. So it's not just this, and we create safety and comfort and you're gonna be So heard it like that. And who are you? Right? Like how are you showing up in that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To totally. Absolutely. It's, there's definitely that, that, that process. At the same time, one of the things that I like about junior clinicians is the humility that they And their education is so much more on point. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think, I think there's a little bit of hubris, that comes with, having done something for a while. and, and I would say even feeling like one is good at that thing. That one has been, been doing it for a while. I feel like I'm a pretty good therapist. You know, I've been doing it for a while. So I think there's a little bit of hubris that comes with that. I would say that's part of why this training thing that I'm doing right now feels so Because it resets some of that. It resets some of that and it makes me feel like, oh, you know, I, I, I start getting feedback that's like, oh, I actually really need to work on some element. And as Benjamin Franklin once said, I believe it's Benjamin Franklin said, I enjoy learning, but I don't necessarily enjoy being taught. So there's definitely that place where I started getting feedback on this work, you know? And so some part of it's like, what do you know? I've been doing this for 16 years, I'm doing fine. But then another part is just like, okay, why? Like how valuable this is so such a, a, a beautiful, a beautiful thing to be Well, and I think that's the hard time as a clinician, right? And it's one of the things, so I really like teaching motivational interviewing because everybody has to get a refresher in it every six months if they actually wanna do it. And, yeah.'cause you've, it's found that when you don't, you go back to just being directive all the time. and so, because I get to train it, it keeps me a little bit more honest. But one of the things that struck me is this idea that your clients are not qualified to fully critique you. So just because your clients like you, and just because your clients get better over time doesn't necessarily mean that you're as good of a therapist as you can be. You are, they don't know what you're doing, they don't have your education. You need to go be around some other therapist and get knocked around a little bit every now and then. And, and exactly. To me, this is a great example of exactly what we're talking about, where we put ourselves in, in scenarios where, where my knife is gonna get most sharpened by, you know, by, by going to a training, you know, or by being with some other therapists, having other therapists critique my work. Being in a men's group where people are really showing up and, and pushing against each other. In a, in a, in a healthy. in a negotiating way. Yeah. Exactly. And, but, and, but, but really showing up at the Absolutely. Absolutely. There's, you know, and when we don't do that, we from my point of view anyway, we are basically inviting the world to be in a, um, in a codependent relationship with us, to collude with us in our pathologies or in this, you know, the places where we need to grow. It's like, I know I need to grow here, but I could just surround myself with people who will not challenge me in this area, I'm just gonna be around people that put up with this. Why would I change it? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And, and that, you know, makes it that so valuable when we have the bravery. So yes, whenever any guy calls, for couples therapy, I will say most of the guys that I've experienced called for couples therapy, they've done, they're doing because their wives have asked them every time. Almost every time. which is. Yeah. And at the same time, whenever a guy calls and says, you know what, statistically it's gonna be your wife, so well done for calling. To Mm-hmm. that step, you know, way to make the call. I have a lot of Yeah. It's a hard call to make and you're already following through so good on it. Yeah. EE, exactly. And, and there's no world in which this, this process is gonna be comfortable. It may be fun, but it will not yeah. That's my big beef with how aspirational like our program was. It's all these Yalom sessions where it's these big depth workings, and that's great, and we need to know those exist, but there also needs to be just a, like, Hey, it's a job and people are gonna show up and you need to do your job. Right. I don't know. I think I've, I've probably said that too often. So I wanna respect your time too, 'cause I know it's getting late out where you are., the three questions that I ask everybody that comes on r the first one is, what's a truth about being a man in masculinity that you learned before you were 12? That's still true today. This is, this is like totally left field, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you the first thing that came up to me. I. This is kind of bizarre. get naked with other guys. All right. You gotta gotta expound on that. Yeah. Yeah. It is part of Orthodox Jewish practice, but, but many different Jews from all walks of life do this. There's something called a mikva. A mikvah is a Hebrew word that refers to a ritual bath. When I was a kid, we would go to the mikvah maybe two, three times a year before big holidays. We'd go the day before Rosh Hashanah the day before Kippur, and maybe the day before Passover. and I hated it. It was uncomfortable for me. I did not like being, and, and, and it is like, it is totally, totally like no, no filter. Like you're, you're. Oh yeah, you're, you're in a locker room kind of a, not, it's not even a locker room, but kind of this kind of small locker room style room. Everybody's getting undressed,, guys all shapes and sizes, when I say all, I mean really all shape, sizes, colors, all thing. and you get, kind of get in line and you're in line and, you know, somebody goes in, it's a relatively small pool, so maybe, you know, one, two, max, three at a time can go in. They go, they dunk, they come out, right. It's just a lot of naked guys. And I remember feeling really uncomfortable there. The one other, the o other like, you know, pre 12 years old, my dad used to take me to the JCC in Denver. And he would give me what's called a mice. Now I don't, and I'm sure there are other words in other languages for it, but the mice is, you go into the schitz, and if we don't know what a schitz is, I, I don't know if I can help you. It's like the, the bath. The steam room. Yeah. The, yeah, yeah. You go into the schitz and in the schitz, first of all, you walk into the schitz. I walk into the shits. I walk into the shits, and there's these old guys who like, have probably been there And just balls out. without, without, without having to, without having to step out and take a breath. You know, for me, I walk in there, it's like, oh, you know, but, but these guys are sitting in there like, you know, they're talking about this and that, and you're the big bellies hanging out and all that. They don't care Mm-hmm. And, and my father put me up on this table. And you take the mice, and the mice is a big reed bundle and you get it, all soapy with hot water and soap. And you, and, and he would hit me with it. And as a, as a child, I was like, this is so Mm-hmm. comfortable. and, as, as an adult, I wish I could find a place to do it here. I'm sure there are places and I'd Well, what did that, what did teach you that was, that's been so useful in your life? yeah, that there's something very powerful. You know, again, I think it's maybe kind of within the theme of just like, let's let, let's, let's take off both the psychic and the physical bullshit. Yeah. Take off our close. There's something that's so bare about it. It's like, great, we can take off. We can get rid of these, like, these boundaries. Look, boundaries are important for sure. They're so deeply important. And at the same time, to be able to get into, an experience with another guy where it's just like, look, right, this is you know, this is, this is intimate. Not sexually, but it is intimate. and that's We're here. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, and we can be intimate and, and, and, and, and engage. Here. Um, and that, and so yeah, that was a, that was a powerful thing. My dad was very comfortable with being naked with other guys, with me, with me and my brothers. And really like, like kind of pushing myself to be comfortable, more comfortable then, has been a very powerful thing Well, I wonder how much of the body growing body dysmorphia among men is happening because we're not exposed to male bodies anymore. We don't have the locker room in high school anymore. It was, I remember going through the Air Force and going through the public showers where you have 50 guys showering in 15 minutes. Right. And part of the bonding of being in your basic flight was the, like, craziness of that, the discomfort of that, and then negotiating social rules to make that possible. Right. So I, I honestly, I don't know where a guy would find it that wouldn't. Necessarily be hard to find if it's not within your culture set. But I, I get the lesson there and I, it's not what I would've thought of go. Yeah, totally. Go to the, I mean, ironically, go find some Jews. Go to the JCC, you know the, there, there's a bunch of naked guys sitting in the schmitz right now just waiting There are. There you are. Go get some cross-cultural exposure and don't be a dick. You'll be fine. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be, and it'll be so deeply uncomfortable. And you know, I think, you know, again, this is, these are themes, you know, from our therapy training, but, but to remember being uncomfortable is not No, in fact, it's important to do anything doing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So good. So go be uncomfortable. Try it out, see what happens. It'll Yeah. Makes sense to me. So the, the next question is, what's a time that chasing your manhood hurt you? can you gimme just a tiny bit of elucidation what chasing your So, so most men, like we negotiate manhood going through adolescence in a childhood, in midlife. There are things that we try on because we know that's what a man does and we get it wrong or we push it too far. Or those moments in time where being a man in this way did damage and it was because I was reaching for my manhood. I was re, I was projecting into the world and trying to be a man. It just wasn't an effective way to do so, and it hurt me or it hurt somebody I care about. Basically any time where I let my ego motivate me and, and guide me most of those times have, have, have ended up in So when it was just like purely seeking status in some way where your ego was being protected. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. You know, I, I don't know if I've, if I would, if I've ever kind of defined it as, as seeking manhood, as opposed to just seeking to feel valuable when I may not feel valuable on the Having to be useful, when I may have, like to be a man is to be useful. I. Be useful or, or what I'm questioning, you know, when I have having my own self-esteem struggles definitely times in my life where I've identified myself based on a narrative that I think is going to get more attention or is going to get more honor or, more a claim in Mm-hmm. way. when the only reason for pushing is I, I don't feel secure here. If I push here, I will. And if that's the only determination on the decision, some, sometimes it aims really poorly. EE, e, e, exactly. There was a time in my life where I would, uh, start many sentences with, and this is even, this is embarrassing to admit, but there was a time in my life I would start many sentences with, as a therapist and even hearing myself, it's like, oh God, Ari, seriously, did you really We, we all do, but when we do, if we're paying attention, we know we're probably wrong. EEEE. Exactly. And any kind, any sentence. Something is if you're looking through a Psychology Today profile and it says, as a therapist you Maybe maybe lean away from that a little bit. Yeah, questions. Yeah. So, so yes, I think, yeah. less for me in seeking, you know, seeking my manhood and more about, you know, following my ego, like you said, especially in a time where I'm all, the entire purpose is just to make myself feel better.'cause I'm feeling a little bit, Mm-hmm. No, that makes sense. And it's one of the things I, I really liked Richard Reeve's books where he talks about the different things that are masculine by the numbers and status seeking is one of them. Right. And I. Oh. Interest. I've never, I've never read Richard books, but, I'll uh, I'll send you a link to a, like him talking about in a podcast, but it's pivotal because you can lose your masculine status. Like across all cultures. Men have to earn their masculinity at some point. if it's a secure culture, there's a tradition, there's a ritual set, there's something that lets you know you're a man. Now, for women, it's classically when their period starts, but since it's gotta be something we earn and get through, it's also something that could be taken away. And I think that's why that status drive is so integral to most masculinity. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's so interesting, even this conversation, I'm really like thinking about it and thinking like, yes, this coats for me as ego pursuit rather than specifically, than specifically masculinity. But I could, I could totally see as that. I will say that once on Adera, I pulled my pants down, in a, like on a street right outside of St. Anthony's So many listen in nudity with school. I know, right? Take off my Just see me world. Just see my, see my, see me in my, in my, in my why do I just have this image of you in 30 years being that old guy to nudist colony now? I damn well. Damn. Yeah. Or at in guy in Yeah. There you, go. There you go. if I could have aspiration, it would be, I wanna be the guy in the, I'm gonna have to make my Like little, like I've smoked for 50 years or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Hit. Nice. Fair enough. And so, so the last question is the, the opposite side of that coin of when has chasing your masculinity or looking to be masculine empowered you. I think the best, the best thing that I can say is really you know, again, within the last, the, these last few years living here in Israel, I've really felt, I would say this is a process that I've been on since, you know, since early adulthood, but really felt it particularly acutely here, where there's the demand. You know, like really this message, Ari's, time to stop hiding. It's time to stop screwing around, show up, be, you know, show up. A man shows up. Show up, do your thing, shoot your shot, man. It's here. It's here. Do it. The world, the world is not like, the world is not waiting for you, and yet at the same time, the world is deficient without you showing up., but the world will, will also like, like if you don't really push yourself in there and make your presence felt, the world will continue on without you and the world will be fine. You know? And so there's something about that that really feels compelling. Is it hard? Absolutely. I still, in every class, every KO class, everybody's talking and I'm over here like, call on me. And I, even just, just today I said, I think maybe by the end of the course, which ends in May, I might be able to just like, jump in there and, you know, like, you know, throw my weight around a little bit. You know, it's, it's definitely a, process, but it's, it, it has been, yeah, Very empowering. And, I would also say, and this is, you know, I think it's whole owned podcast, but there's something about my father's death, that, there are, there are, I've heard from different, different, people in the world of philosophy and thought and even mental health. Talk about, talk about killing your parents before they die. right in your mind, changing that relationship, in certain ways. and I think that there's something about my father's death, which has also made some room. I right now am in a process which is, uncomfortable and challenging of trying to fill that space. And not to fill my father's space, but to fill the space within my own psyche that has now been, offered to me of like, now this space exists. Fully own it, fill it up. and it is challenging, but it feels like a very proud and authentic and vulnerable process of fully owning and embracing my masculinity. Yeah. And I, and I think that's important to acknowledge, you know, the loss of parents is brutal, no matter good, bad, indifferent, right? Your parents were a big part of your life, and I think between a father and a son, the, the father takes up so much of your psyche. You hear your father's voice, or if he wasn't around, you hear what you imagine it to be. And so once they're gone from the world, that's, there's pain there. I, I miss my father every day. And there's that room for you. Now that generational handing of the torch, now I'm I'm in moving into that space in the world that he used to fill in some way. Can I ask how long ago your father Uh, he passed in, 2021 and I was lucky enough I got to go and be there for his hospice and take care of him on his way out. wow. Mm-hmm. hard. That's powerful stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Somebody, um, when I was, so my father died on December 26th. I flew in, got from Israel, got to Denver nine o'clock on Monday morning, and the funeral was at one. I stayed in Denver till Wednesday. And, and I was going back in the, in the airport in in New York, which by the way is another part of being a Jew. The Jewish world, especially the English speaking Jewish world is very small. And You're running into know, you, you al almost always somewhere, especially in New York, you know, like, especially in New York all the way going to Israel, you're gonna run into people, you know. Anyway, I ran into to somebody I knew and he told me, he told me this thing, which was very, actually, I felt like it was inappropriate to tell me in the moment. It was like way too soon. But it's but it's something I've thought about a lot. He said, the hole will always be there. You'll learn to walk around it, but the hole will always be there. And I'm definitely, definitely feeling that the kind of the waves of, of the grief process. I, I think you're right. And then maybe I'll, I'll bother you to come on and we'll do, we'll do an episode on grief, but I, I dislike how people frame grief as something you get over instead of something you incorporate. Yeah. And there's, there's pain there, but there's also, there's positivity in accepting that the loss happens and exists and that you miss that person and will miss that person. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, man, we went out pretty deep. Yeah. It. I, well, I can't tell you, man, I, one of the things I'm liking about doing this is I'm getting to like actually talk to people that I've been floating around social media or the education environment of our field in, and I was just so excited to be able to get to reach out to you and get to know you a little bit. Man, I really appreciate you taking the Oh, thank you. Thank you. And like, look, it was fun for me. I, I happen to love the sound of my voice. I enjoy, but I enjoyed talking, but I really enjoy, like, I enjoy the challenge of a question, you know, kind of like what we're talking about. I really enjoy that. And I, you know, there, there are definitely parts of, of this time together where I feel like, God, I have no idea what the freaking I'm talking about., but really just en enjoyed, you know, exploring things with you and, and, and yes, this world of, of, of being a man, you know, a conversation which I, I would imagine you have had with some of your clients that I've certainly had with some of mine is that the as far as I recall the demographic with the highest number of completed suicides is middle aged men. That remains true. and it's like, I. Just let that, give every listener, anybody, anybody, let that give you a moment of pause. Right? All, all of these, you know, these whole, you know, these guys who, who, who, it feels like some parts of the world are really happy to, like, to trash talk and, you know, toxic masculinity and the whole thing. We're struggling a little bit here, you know, like there is some real aloneness here. There's some real I'm immediately going back to that ritual for the wedding, where if those walls, if no one gets inside of those walls, you'll die of starvation at some point in your life. a a Absolutely. Because we are so damn good. We are so damn good at keeping up those walls and I have my shit together, you know, like, yeah. No you Yeah. Yeah. All Definitely parts of, of this time together where I feel like, God, I have no idea what the freaking I'm talking about. but really just en enjoyed, you know, exploring things with you and, and yes, this world of, being a man, a conversation which I, I would imagine you have had with some of your clients that I've certainly had with some of mine is that the, as far as I recall, the demographic with the highest number of completed suicides is middle aged men. That remains true. and it's like, I. Just let that, give every listener, anybody, anybody, let that give you a moment of pause. Right? All, all of these, you know, these whole, you know, these guys who, who, who, it feels like some parts of the world are really happy to, like, to trash talk and, you know, toxic masculinity and the whole thing. We're struggling a little bit here, you know, like there is some real aloneness here. There's some real I'm immediately going back to that ritual for the wedding, where if those walls, if no one gets inside of those walls, you'll die of starvation at some point in your life., and that's our conversation with Ari. I know that ended a little abruptly, but Ari and I kept on talking for like another 20 minutes and the conversation and pace of it really didn't slow down. That seemed like the best place to cut it, just to respect you all's time and information. Don't worry. We're gonna have Ari back on if he's willing to come. He's an interesting guy. A lot of thoughtful insight. I'm so thankful that he came on and shared that with us. Hopefully got what you were looking for here today and have a better understanding of Jewish culture and masculinity within that culture. Please leave a comment or a like, let me know what it is you're looking for, what information you're looking for so that we can continue to make great content for you. Thanks for listening.